Rhett

Oh man, I know that must be frustrating.

Someone around here should be able to diagnose you over the internet -

I think it might be "old-man Bishop" disease - a rare condition suffered by the few men who run, serve as bishop and are almost 40. There is no known cure but providing chocolate for wife has been known to alleviate symptoms. Good luck with that.

I hope the provide-chocolate-to-wife cure worked.

Oh ... this ought to be fun to think about. Question: Does it hurt to pool run or only to land run? (Or do you know?)

Be careful not to OD the wife on chocolate...it might hinder her running, too.

Sorry to hear you're having knee problems. Teena is almost a doctor now..so she should be able to figure your problem out.

No ideas on what it is. But now that you can only run at 10 min mile pace I may jump on a plane and come down and go for a run with you. It would be kind of nice to see you have to run at the pace of us mid to back of the packers. :)

So far, from my own experiments that I have been doing in my hallway (very reliable top-notch studies -- ha ha) I can see a few biomechanic/kinematic differences between running, skipping, and rhetrorunning. 1. Where your center of mass is when landing. (Btw, are you a heel, midfoot, or forefoot striker?) 2. Impact time differences. 3. Quadricep role differences.

So, I take it that you no longer believe this to be chondromalacia?

Are you alternating between ice and heat?

I dunno! But I highly concur with Doone's diagnosis! It would help even more to supply the *patient* with chocolate tid and prn for as long as the symptoms persist!

Smooth,Unfortunately I've been taking chocolate PRN for the last few weeks and I don't think it is working. :)

Teena, I really don't know what's up. First I thought it was chondromalacia and it may be. There are some very similar things going on as to when I had that, but the pain is more in the patellar tendon. I still think it has something to do with my quad, because it just doesn't feel exactly right at the point of origin (groin area) although doesn't hurt, just a pulling sensation. I am a forefoot striker. The pain when running comes after push off when my leg is fully back and knee is bent and starts coming forward again. I however can stand in place and do that with my leg and it doesn't hurt. It's too cold to pool run so I don't know, but maybe I'll throw on the wet suite and give it a try. No I have not been icing. I know I should. I have been taping though and last week I took 800mg Ibuprofin 3x per day and didn't run all week.

Doctor Teena, please help!!! You can do it! :)

Mack, I'm sure you would smoke me in my current condition. I'd love to run with you some day though.

Explain exactly where the pain in your knee/patellar tendon is: Medial? Lateral? Distal? Proximal?

It is medial to central, right below (not under) the knee cap.

SSF ~ Both Rhett and I need your help, seriously!!!

Rhett ~ Do you have palpable pain in your knee when not running? Mine is in the insertion area of the tibia tuberosity, a dull ache, like a bruise.

The description of your pain when running sounds a lot like mine. I have been icing post run for 20 min tid, foam roll and stretch the legs, particularly the quadriceps. I didn't take any ibuprofen though. I also ignored Teena's and my son's advise to cut back on running! I'm a stubborn fool.

SSF~

I have been thinking about you all day and have a few thoughts. We can go over them in detail tomorrow evening as we party!!!! Also, I REALLY REALLY REALLY want you to look at the link I am putting here for Rhett. It's the links that you can get to through this link that I want you to look at. Seriously. Remember how I was telling you today that perhaps we could strengthen some of your other muscles, etc. This site goes over exactly what I was talking about and covers a lot of the strength training and stretches I was referring to. PLEASE look at it. :) :) :)

Rhett~

Have you considered that your problem may ("may" being the operative word) be stemming from your Adductor Magnus? This is just a thought ... in no way am I saying this is what it is. But when you said your groin area is tight it made me look some things up. Check this out: http://www.ehow.com/video_4945432_knee-problems-adductor-magnus.html

In fact, both you and Smooth should check out this site because it goes over an AWESOME rehab program for knee pain in general (you just have to click on the different boxes). Seriously, as I am watching it I am very impressed and going to implement a lot of the stuff for myself.

Smooth, no I don't have any pain when not running, but it sounds like our pain may be in the same are. I think Teena's idea sounds likely. I've actually been working on my adductors and quads since the knee pain started. I was thinking the same thing.

I jumped rope and did some core work and some leg work with stretchy bands tonight. No knee pain like usual... just can't run.

Is there any crepitus when you flex and extend the knee?

SSF ~ I checked out the site, good stuff for knee pain. I have been using the foam roller and stretching exercises much like the videos suggest. I will add the strengthening/rehab exercises. However I can't do the one-legged squat...too painful on the weight bearing affected knee. THANKS for posting the link.

Rhett...These dang knee problems sure are difficult to diagnose. I hope you can get it figured out soon. Maybe you should go see a doctor.

I saw my orthopedic specialist today and he ruled out a meniscus tear, so that's good. Oh, I forgot to mention to you that I have knee pain, in addition to the possible stress fracture near my hip. Anyway, he said he would look at that once we get the major pain figured out.

Back to my knee pain. It never hurts when I run or walk. It only hurts late at night in my sleep or if I sit too long. It's a really strange pain that almost causes me to collapse once I stand up. If I walk around for a few minutes, it goes away. You know the feeling when you get hit in the testicles? That's how it feels, but in my knee. That's probably the most accurate description of the pain.

Sweetie - you set the blog on fire. Nothing like a weird running injury to get everyone's curiosity going. I too hope you can get back to running soon - I know how much you love it. Do you think some of that running passion can wear off on me?

Teena, I checked out the videos. I've been doing a lot of the strengthening exercises and stretching, but I don't have a foam roller. I'll have to get one.

Smooth, nope I don't get any "snap, crackle, or pop" in my knee. Do you?

Dale, I'll pass on any pain in my knee that hurts like that. I hope your doc has some solutions for you.

Rhett ~ Glad to hear the knee don't have any snap, crackle or pop. :) Neither does mine! At least not yet.

The next question is: is there any swelling?

I can't believe you don't have a foam roller. Don't let the word *foam* fool you. It is a torture machine in disguise! :)

Smooth, if it is that tortuous, I may just have to get one. I wonder if they sell them at Big 5.

I just checked the Big 5 website. They have them for $19.99. I got mine at Wasatch Running Center for $10. I've seen them at Sports Authority!

I promise the torture is worth every penny of it! :)

Hey, did you see/hear about the new registration process for Boston 2012 and the new qualifying time for Boston 2013?

http://www.boston.com/sports/marathon/blog/2011/02/baa_announces_new_procedures_f.html

Rhett, you must get a roller. It feels really good to roll out the hammies and quads.

As for them lowering the qualifying standards for Boston, now I'll NEVER get in. LOL. I barely make the qualifying time for 80+ year old males.

Well I never thought I would actually qualify for Boston but now the standards are such that I don't have to feel bad about it - there is no way!! Maybe when I am in my 50's. Congrats to all the BQ's now and in the future.

I'll try and get a roller today if I have time.

Smooth, thanks for the link about Boston. I was starting to think this might be my last Boston, but with the new registration and qualifying, it might just keep me motivated to go for my 6th in a row next year... assuming this knee of mine starts behaving.

I like what they did with the registration. I think I would have done it a bit different, letting everyone with 10 minutes faster than their time register and then allowing everyone else to register and have a lottery with those names, but it's all good. Now if we're fast enough, we're pretty much guaranteed entry.

Hey Rhett,

Have you tried any simple KT taping techniques to help with the patella tracking? I really really really like Chris Harper's youtube videos on KT taping. Chris Harper is an awesome PT whom I have talked a lot to via email.

Here is a very simple one for Runner's Knee/Chondromalacia.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kt+tape+runners+knee&aq=f

Smooth - thanks for sharing the Boston qual and registration link.

I think I like what they did. I'm sure it will get a lot of people hot under the collar, but they certainly had to do something. It will be interesting to see how people react to it and how it works out these next couple years.

Teena, yes I've given those techniques a try and it didn't make a lick of difference. In the past when I had runner's knee, I could wear a PT strap and it would greatly alleviate the pain. With my current injury, neither the PT strap nor the KT tape makes a difference. :(