High-Octane

Those are definitely fast - I've been wanting to test myself sprinting too but never seem to get around to it. Nice workout!

Those are unbelievably fast quarters. You could really have something amazing developing here.

Great speed work IJR! I always run track intervals faster than I should ... and then end up not doing as many repeats as I should or extending my recoveries. With that said, speaking from what I have read not practice, I think the key to track repeats is the right pace is not too strenuous for the first few, but by keeping the recoveries shorter, the last couple are really hard. If we need to extend our recoveries, we are running them faster than what the workout intended.

Thanks guys, it is fun running faster! I just wish I could do it for a longer distance. JG is right, I ran the intervals too fast and had to extend my recoveries(but it was fun). Next time I'll slow down and try and keep my recoveries at a reasonable pace. I wuold still like to run just one all-out to see how fast I could do it :-)

Is the run less/ run faster program working? I need to run less....says my doc. I hope it works since I am going to start getting in shape for marathon in April. I'll be watching your blog to see what I am suppose to be doing. Do you have a plan you are going by?

Hi Steam,

I'm not sure if the program is working. I've only been doing it for a couple of weeks now and I really just jumped into the end of it's half marathon program. I assumed I was at a reasonable level of condition and I have a half marathon this weekend so that's where I started. I plan to settle in on a longer marathon plan (using RLRF program) after this weekend. I've had a hard time deciding my paces using the program. The program uses you currnet abilities at different race distances to determine paces. Since all my races were months ago I've been guessing at what I think I can currently do and you know how that goes. I probably always overestimate my current ability. Right now I would probably rename the program Run Really Hard But Less Amount Of Time! With all said, I think it's worth giving it a try, I'll let you know if it works in about 4 months !

That's FAST! Good job! I know people who swear by that book!

Those are some fast quarters! I'm always thinking I'd like to do an all out 400, 800, or mile but like you said you need to do it while still fresh. But then it kind of messes with the rest of the workout. You could probably get away with it more though on a 400 than a mile.

Thanks TL,

Can I get names of those people who swear by that book so I can call them for references :-) I'm not totally sold on it yet but I guess I haven't really given in enough time to affect my performance yet.

Dave,

I guess with the RLRF program I could just do some fast stuff on an off day...that would be fun!

Preston, it is a proven plan successfully used by many. Obviously there are hundreds of training plans and different approaches, and they all have merit. The RLRF program is great for anyone that has struggled with injury problems resulting from high mileage ... the cross training days are also a critical part of the program ... you may run less ... but it is not an 'easy' training program by any means ... and since you have taken to cycling, I think it is perfect for you!

Here are all the reference you could ask for ... just read the comments below the article!

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244--8257-F,00.html

As far as paces, just go to the back of the book & find the plan for a 3:20 marathon, & follow the plan! I don't think you will find those paces easy ... if you do, you will run a 3:20! You can always just tweak the plan & run the paces a few seconds faster than recommended ... and that only means you are training for a 3:18 or 17 ... or whatever! The prescribed paces will get you to a 3:20, if you can run them faster, you are training to race faster, but that does not change the meat & bones of the plan.

As far as our 400 times ... I think we should set up a virtual 400 meet ... run 1 mile warm-up, do 4-6 100 meter strides ... time ourselves for 400 meters ... and follow it up with a long, easy recovery run!

Anyone else up for this? It could be an 2x/year event to track our speed progress. :)

JG - I'm in, sounds like fun

Thanks JG for the additional information. I read the whole book. There are a lot of testimonials in the book too. I believe it will work if I stick to it completly!

Steam,

You should read the articles JG recommended and buy the book! It sure might work for you too.

Regarding the Virtual 400 Meet...I'm in! I hope there's no entry fee because I know I'm going to be blown away by you guys :-) I suggest we require each have a timekeeper since I know JG believe...and I quote "if you're not cheating, you're not trying".... :-)

The entry fee will be nominal, just make checks payable to JG ...

I think everyone has a Garmin, so I'll post my Garmin link on my blog, if you don't trust me! We will trust that you will not take your bike to the track.

Funny thing, I did think at Mile 16 Saturday, I should have stashed a kayak in the woods instead of a Gatorade, as the last 10 miles were along a fast flowing creek!

Alright. I will buy the book and hope it helps me for Boston! Thanks!!

Those are amazing paces. You should go race a 5k and base you training paces off of that time, just like the chart is in the book. Paces should be based off of a recent race time, not a goal time.

I've been trying to figure out a 5K to race but just haven't been able to find one to get into my schedule. Things have just been hectic on the weekends.

This may be shooting too high but I looked at the 3:15 marathon training schedule (based on a 20:10 5K and I'm thinking about starting that after this Half Marathon this weekend. I really believe I can do that.

David, I could not agree with that statement more ... however, I did not arbitrarily pick the 3:20 training plan for him. I am very familiar with the book, and I made that suggestion based on having watched his training paces the last many months, which is as valid or more valid than a specific race time ... there are a 100 factors that affect race times.

IJR - last year, I could not hit the race times for the 3:20 training plan ... and I struggled with the paces prescribed in the plan ... but that is what I aimed for. I ran a 3:20 at St. George, when the plan in the book said I shouldn't follow that plan/goal ... I attribute that to the downhill nature of St. George. My point is, if you can hit the paces prescribed in the plan ... you have set a very realistic goal & have a high probability of hitting it if you follow the plan.

When I engaged the 3:20 plan in that book last fall, my current 5k PR was 21:07 & my 10k PR was 44:49 ... and those were recent times and 'A' performances! When you are new to running, you have to consider your potential in addition to your past when establishing goals ... because your times will steadily improve if you are training smart.

JG,

So what I think you're saying is that I'm not completly crazy starting my training, shooting for 3:16. If I find it too dificult then I can back off a bit. BTW...I just backed the number from 3:20 to 3:16 since I like that time much better :-)

If I start the 16 week training program on the 7th of Nov. it will end the week of the Cowtown Marathon in Ft. Worth. Perfect for my goal!

That is awesome that Cowtown fits perfectly with starting a 16 week plan! Only you can determine what the appropriate time goal is, but no I do not think you are crazy, you are definitely capable of a marathon under 3:20! The training paces in the book are a guide, so yes, if you can run the workouts a little faster than what is prescribed for a 3:20, than you may be on track for a 3:16,17, or 18!

When it comes to race day, just make sure you have 3 goals, a stretch goal that is realistic but will require the perfect day, your goal which would be a great run, and a back-up goal which will still be a great run & you will be happy with ... and will be a new PR!

You may not know those exact times until you get farther along in your training, they may end up being 3:16, 3:20, & 3:25 ... or they may be 3:20, 3:25, & 3:30. Just remember your ultimate goal is to BQ & anything better than that just strengthens your chance of getting in! Based on the qualifying times this year, a 3:30 has a high probability of getting you in since the standards are tightened, but a 3:25 will almost certainly get you in!

Whooo...Hooo.... I'm getting excited just thinking about it..!!

JG - OK, you got me stared - LOL! First, I hope you realize this is in all good fun.

I think that's why a 5k is a good speed/conditioning indicator, because the factors influencing the time will be less as the distance gets shorter. I would not say there are 100 factors influencing a 5k - maybe 2 big ones, all else being equal - the course and the weather. And even the weather is less of a factor in a 5k vs a 10k or longer. He hasn't run a 5K in a while so I don't think it would hurt to get a new benchmark. Just based off his 10k time in June his marathon shows as 3:21 - so not far off the 3:20 mark. It would be helpful to have a more recent 5k - 10k time because, who knows, maybe he could run a 3;15 with the right training.

I think the ultimate goal here is to stress the body enough to provide enough stimulus to improve without going too hard and thereby negatively affecting recovery time in order to run the next workout efficiently. So if one over reaches in the first few weeks of a new plan by going for paces that are faster than recommended, chances of injury will increase. Also, that particular runner could possibly see his or her workouts start to suffer due to lack of sufficient recovery. Finally, if the workout calls for 10 x 400's for example, but because the runner is running too fast he or she only completes 6, then the intent of the workout was not met. (not saying that is what happened here, just an example.)

All of these plans are, of course, an outline. Each runner is different and each body reacts and recovers differently to stimulus. Ultimately, it is up to the individual runner to find what works for them. Now, having said that, if one is going to follow a boiler plate plan then they should at least give it a try and do what it says for a while before modifying it.

Just for grins and giggles I looked up my 5k time from 5 months ago and that book would have me doing mile repeats at a 5:45 pace. Granted, there are only 3 repeats in the workout, but that is pretty dang fast. So I think the chart paces are pretty challenging as they are - for me anyway.

BTW- your 5k time predicted a 3:25 and 10k a 3:26, and that was at the start of training. Not only did your fitness improve along the way during training, but St. George on a good day can be at least a 5 minute aided course from what I have read. So those predicted times were not that far off. The question is, if you had run the suggested paces in the book instead of struggling to run the paces for 3:20, would you have actually improved at a faster rate?

David, I concur with everything you say. As far as my experience, I definitely did not over train, and my 3:20 was a blowout performance. Race prediction calculators have little merit predicting a marathon time on the mileage I was running ... although they are an indicator of potential. I did not follow the plan in the book, I just used it as a guideline when I actually ran ... and I had a 20 minute PR on the same course on a day where it was 20 degrees warmer than it was in 2009.

My training included a total of 187 miles over the 3 months leading up to the race, a long run of 17 miles, and only 7 runs over 10 miles, and only 3 track workouts ... this is far short of what the book prescribes! I do attribute my success to the extensive cross training I did, which is recommended in the book.

The paces in the book are designed to be hard, that is why you only run 3 times per week ...if IJR can do them, he is following the right plan and it is a realistic time goal. He is definitely hitting the mark on the cross training!

This is cool...I feel like a guinea pig in a lab experiment :-)

Funny IJR ... now eat you pellets and go ride your bike! lol

Oh, and I was not suggesting you run faster than the paces in the book, unless you did not find the 3:20 paces challenging enough ... and thereby setting your goal faster ... but not fast enough to jump to the next plan. I think the paces are designed right & should be hard ... so I was not suggesting you alter them ... just that if you ran them a little faster, that meant you were training for a little faster time. I think DH misunderstood me on that point.

Can you hear the squeaking of the wheel? :-)

I think we are all missing the point. The guy just ran freaking 70-77 on 6 consecutive 400 splits. I don't care if the recovery split was 400 or 200, this is very close to high school speed and believe me, I have pretty good information that he is not in high school. There is something going on here and I am just sitting back to watch the show, I have provided my last piece of advice. I'm not sure any training program applies to these competitive-roping/bike-with-the-big-boys types.

Flat, that's because he is sitting on a little secret about a certain Vo2Max number that I could only dream of having. :-)

Flat, yes ... they are smoking fast 400's ... definitely took note of that! Faster than I have ever done a set of 400 intervals!

Also, noted the first sentence of his report where he said, "I'm still struggling with the correct paces in this new Run Less Run Faster program so ..."

So ... that is why the conversation turned that direction. As DH stated, it is best to stick with what is prescribed in a plan and give it a chance to work ... and I am pretty sure the book is not suggesting he run 400's that fast ... although it is awesome he did! I guess that is why his blog title is 'I Just Run'! lol

Ha ha Flat...Way, way past high school and much closer to the retirement home :-) You're also right on the training programs not applying, I'm in it completly for the fun of it so I'm hard pressed to stick to a specific plan...But I promise I'm going to stick this on out through the duration!

I Just Run... :-)

Preston, I'll let you know how I like the retirement home. I'm guessing it's better to keep running.

Wouldn't it be cool if we could all retire at the same one? We could have some really excitingly fun sloooow races :-)

If the criteria is slow, I win.