Patience; the new endurance sport.

I need to put MY medal in my car :)

Glad you got out of that one, funny how little things like that can make the biggest difference!

Nice 2 miles...glad they were enjoyable again despite the tightness. Keep up the hard work!

Ya I think I will keep mine in my car as well:)

No Josse, you need to put your UVM Winner trophy on a neclace, and then put the OTHER 14 on the passenger seat. That ought to cover it.

:) What a great idea! Medals dangling on rear view mirror, plagues and trophies on dash board, I'll bet those ITB thingie on your legs could buy some sympathy too!

Who cares about the medal? You know you've run it. You wrote in the blog about it. Your time is in the official results. MarathonGuide.Com will keep it around for a long time.

Aside from that the glory of a marathon finish is overrated. A more meaningful measure of the accomplishment is to run a marathon at a reasonable portion of your 5 K speed. E.g 3:00 marathon is an accomplishment for a 17:30 5 K runner, but not for a 15:00. I wish I could find a marathon that would not give a finisher medal to a sub-15:00 5 K runner that does not go under 3:00. If I could and it was not on a Sunday I would run it just to support the concept. But we do not live in a world that cares to stop and ponder the meaning of what we call an accomplishment.

Luz- you are SO lucky!!! Man, I wish I had run into him instead of the one I got ;) I had traffic school this morning :( It was my first ticket in almost 20 years. Live, learn, drive slower!! ;)

Sasha- you are a kill joy :p

If you had been a guy, you would've gotten the ticket! :-)

Sasha, that is because you are a very accomplished, hard working man, who has overcome (by sheer will power) many life obstacles--and on top of it, you're an amazing runner who works very hard at being a good runner. But some of us need the smaller accomplishments and recognitions to help us along, to feel that we belong and that we can achieve. Being a good mother receives little if any recognition. There are no "Sundays" for motherhood, and no one will ever give you a medal. There is never any quantatative evidence of the hard work of motherhood. If you kids turn out well, it was their free will and choices, if they turn out bad, they may blame you. For so many intangile evidences of one's good doing in the world-- I'll gladly accept a medal for finishing a bad race. For so many other things that matter, there are no medals. There are winners, and finishers. You are both--but you really shouldn't diminish the gratitude the finishers who may, like me, feel it is symbolic of their ablity to get through life with a few small accomplishments along the way.

Well said Luz.

Luz - you could have finished 2 hours slower and gotten the same medal with a whole lot less effort. You could have done this with no training at all.

I believe the key to improvement is in going after the rewards that require improvement. Finisher medals in marathons and half marathons have become essentially meaningless in that sense. Once you can get through the marathon in 7 hours, you've got your finisher medal. You can improve by 4 hours from that, and you still get the same finisher medal, "everyone is a winner". No wonder American runners often resemble the workers in the Soviet Union, they have the same reward system.

I may agree that only place winners should get medals and prizes. But, I wouldn't compare American runners to workers in the Soviet Union as much as I would think of them as entitlted imperialists who think their money entitles buys them an accomplishment.

I love the story about the medal, Luz. Thanks for the laugh.

I am starting to question the value of being a member of the FastRunningBlog when the hard efforts of the members do not meet the standards of the 'leader'. It is starting to feel like we are living in a dictatorship and takes away from the work we put in.

The scriptures tell us we need to continue striving for perfection throughout our lives and not achieve it in one fell swoop and then maintain it. Sasha - if you feel so strongly about these things, maybe you should set a minimum standard for your forum and kick the rest of us out. I hate coming in to read posts and getting criticism in return.

OK - off my high horse now.

Careful Sasha!

Sasha,

You're right about the medals becoming meaningless in "your" sense. Heck, one does not need to finish a marathon to get a medal. Trophies and medals are cheap and plentiful at D.I and eBay. On the other hand, one does not need a medal for the satisfaction that one has worked hard to reach a goal or to improve one's performance. You said: " the key to improvement is going after the rewards that require improvement." That "rewards" is subjective and personal; in some cases, not tangible. I like to know what kinda rewards you consider meaningful.

Maurine:

I would not mind at all if people who complain just left instead of complaining. I have invested a lot of effort into the blog and I am offering it to the community at no cost. I think I do have the privilege to use my server and my software to share my training and racing ideas. I find it ironic that people who find themselves offended by my approach have no qualms about using the resources I have given them as a good will gesture to publicly complain in this manner.

I am willing to share with those who want to learn to run fast how to run fast. It is not easy, and requires letting go of some superstitions. You cannot do both, you cannot hold on to the mindset that makes you slow and expect to get faster.

There is a reason the average marathon finish among men is around 4:20, and 4:50 among women. It is not the ability. Is the very mindset that has been expressed in reaction to the principles of getting faster I have expressed in this thread. The reason I keep the blog around is to help runners overcome that mindset. Those who are not comfortable with that are welcome to leave, and I do not care if this is 95% of the runners on the blog. I am not running in a presidential election and do not need a popular vote. If somebody insists on remaining slow, it is their choice. I do assume, however, that if you are on this site you want to be fast. Sorry if that assumption is not correct.

Smooth:

Unfortunately the races today do not provide a whole lot of meaningful rewards. Meaningful defined as "something you cannot get with a significantly less effort". Prize money is probably the closest to that definition, but unfortunately it is available to only to a very few runners. Boston Qualifier is another option, but what do you do once you've reached it, and the Trials Qualifier is too far of a stretch? So runners have to invent those rewards themselves, sub-3:30 marathon, sub-3:20, sub-3:10, etc. But those are meaningless outside of a close circle of training partners and a few fellow bloggers. We need something better. But we will not have it if we continue to aspire to finisher medals and age division trophies, and be happy to call any performance an accomplishment just because it was difficult.

Meaningless? Meaningless? I don't think those are meaningless. In fact, this is what I just wrote in the forum:

I would like to improve my marathon PR. Why? Not to help me get comps or to win prize money. I have one reason only: personal satisfaction.

And I personally believe that that is the reason most runners try to improve their times. Seeking acceptance or validation for my improved times from my family, friends, neighbors, race directors, or anyone else is meaningless. External rewards are fleeting and will leave you wanting more. Personal satisfaction comes from within and can never be taken away from me (and the enjoyment I get from the runs). That is why I run and why I want to improve- because I can take satisfaction from knowing that I did the hard work and can be proud of what I accomplished. And that is regardless of if I am a first time 5k finisher or the world record marathon holder, or if I lost those 5 extra pounds or just can say that I didn't sit on my butt all day watching TV.

I am proud of each and every runner and all that you accomplish. Good job, especially to you, Luz. And I love the medal/cop story. Sounds like a cool officer.

Sasha i understand where you are coming form. I know your goal is to make people want to be faster. You should not get so bugged that people like to get a finishers medal or age group trophy's. I think you are reading more into it than is really there. So what if people like a token or a reminder for something they accomplished in life. You need to be careful to not turn people away form the sport (or the blog) all together. I know you are not meaning to be offensive but you are.

People set goals for themselves and sometimes they get those goals and sometimes they don't. I think a finisher's medal is not a bad thing for race directors to do. I like mine, they have meaning and when you say "who care about finishers medals" you are taking my meaning away. Stop it!

LuzyLew,

I debated whether or not to post something here. Quite the commentary that is going on.

Let me start by saying that I absolutely loved your story!!!

I think it is sad when someone finds it necessary to discount others' successes. I have never understood why someone would feel it their duty to do such a thing. I just don't get it.

I am glad that they give medals at so many races. It is nice to have something tangible that reminds of the journey that we took. (Plus, vanity or not, it is nice to feel like a rock star every now and then ... especially when you are a mom!!! )

Congrats on everything!

Well said Jon:) I don't do any of this for anyone on this blog but myself.

Like Josse said- mementos or not, we do this for ourselves and the personal meaning it brings into our lives.

I'm still progressing towards 18:30 5k and 3:00 marathon. I wish I could run 17:30. Isaiah 28:10.

Teena, Josse - I do not think you've understood. Maybe the following will be of help:

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,77.0.html

Additionally, I would like to relate some of my own experiences.

In 1999 I ran the Boise Marathon hoping to PR with a 2:37. I crashed badly at 15, and finished with 2:49:59 in second place. I did not understand why. I had worked hard the entire winter with 90 mile weeks and 24 mile long runs. This was probably my most disappointing marathon. Others have been a whole lot better. Because I chose to be disappointed that one time. I did not congratulate myself on finishing. I did not congratulate myself on finishing second. Why? Because deep down I knew I underperformed, and suppressing that feeling with a superficial celebration would have killed that little something that creates improvement. The only way to improve was to face the hard truth about my fitness, and attempt to learn from my mistakes.

When I tell a blogger he can run faster, and give him the estimate of his potential, I calculate into the equation that he will have the mental ability to forgo superficial celebrations, and will have the courage to pause, ponder, and dig for the meat.

In light of that, finisher medals are a distraction. If finishing 26 miles registers as an accomplishment in your mind, you will have a problem. You will get to mile 20 on pace for a PR, and it will get painful. From the back of your mind will come an ugly monster that will say - don't worry, you can run a minute per mile slower and you will still finish, and you will get the same finisher medal, and it makes no difference for the cop, he will still let you off without a ticket, just keep that medal in the car. And you will do just that, slow down by a minute per mile instead of only 20,30, or maybe 40 seconds, and your PR will not happen, it will run past you with 3 miles to go. Finisher medals for anybody except those who truly are not able to cover the marathon under 7 hours build a nest for that monster. That is why I am so much against them. Especially when they cost the race director $4 a piece.

I will say, I've gotten much faster since I started blogging. I'm glad Sasha has facilitated this means of accountability and encouragement.

I understand your point Sasha. Change can only happen when you are no longer willing to accept the consequences of your current actions. This is a very highly individualized process though, and everyone does it a bit differently, in a different time frame than others.

One more story. Jenny Spangler runs a 2:43 to qualify for the '96 Trials and she is in tears afterwards, and those are not tears of joy, she is disappointed because deep down she knows she is not a 2:43 girl. She enters the Trials with a B qualifier, nobody considers her a factor. She runs away from the field early on, they ignore her thinking she is a rabbit seeking some TV time, cannot keep the pace, and will come back. She does not come back winning with a 2:29.

Had she not known deep down she was a 2:29 girl she would not have been in tears over 2:43. Had she not been in tears over 2:43 she would not have run 2:29.

Yes, you do need to know/believe that you are a "2:29" girl :)

Some of us though, just need to prove to ourselves that we can even put one foot in front of the other for the first time, or after an injury. It is ok for us to take that confidence we get from our experience and then build on that. For many of us, we need to take whatever positives we can focus on to be able to keep moving forward.

Marion:

The reason I keep the blog around is to teach every runner the principles of Olympic level success. While most runners will not have a world-class Quality X in body, they can develop world-class mental Quality X. Thus every mental Quality X principle you learn from a world-class or national class runner directly applies to everybody.

What I realized over 3 years of maintaining this site is that the mental Quality X deficiency (correctable) is much greater than the physical Quality X deficiency (not correctable). The reason I am carrying on this thread is that I believe I've just hit on the root cause of the mental Quality X deficiency.

I realize many runners will say they have no desire to correct that deficiency because they want to have fun. Which I would accept if they did not spend hundreds of dollars on Garmins, hundreds of hours reading various sorts of information on how they could be faster, and making statements that express envy of another runner's speed. Deep down they want to be faster.

One of the key elements of mental Quality X is to know your potential, whether it be world-class or maybe only a 4:15 marathon, and to view things from that perspective. Anything slower than your potential is either a stepping stone, or a consequence of some mistake or misfortune. Usually a mistake, and more than one. Hitting a stepping stone may be a cause for reserved celebration. However a question should be always be asked if perhaps you should have reached out for a stepping stone that was further out and still reached it. Do not overcelebrate stepping stones or you will fall into the water. A truly mediocre performance must be seen as such. Even though some negative language and emotions might be used in the analysis, it is still a positive outlook because it reflects the overall perspective of knowing your true potential, which is much higher. Had Jenny Spangler been celebrating her 2:43, she would have expressed a 2:37 perspective, but deep down she knew better.

The ability to face a mediocre performance without looking aside, or putting a pretty tablecloth over it is a key ingredient in the mental Quality X. If you are trying too hard to be cheerleader-positive about every performance, this will not come.

I realize that those ideas are foreign to a lot of runners. This should not come as a surprise. After all, the average finishing time for a man in the marathon is 4:20, and 4:50 for a woman. If the mental Quality X were to be perfected in every runner to the Olympic level with no changes in the physical Quality X those times would improve by about an hour - 3:20 and 3:50 respectively. From the physical perspective mostly from better training, but that better training would happen as a consequence of mental Quality X improvement. So it is natural to see a measure of defiance when those principles are presented to a group of runners, if they could come naturally or if they were inherently present in our culture, we would have seen much faster average finishing times.

However, those are the key principles. They come before Garmin, carboloading, long runs, Yasso 800s, latest research on fat utilization, and anything else. If you want to be faster, learn those principles first. Of course, if you want just to have fun, feel free to ignore it.

Isn't it okay to want to be faster AND to have fun??? I spend a lot of money taking my kids to Disneyland and we buy a souvenir to remember the trip. We also take a lot of pictures to remember the trip. People like to be reminded, especially when they are 80.

When I am 80 I will look at my TOU finisher medal and I will remember what a fool I was to run a marathon untrained, but that I finished under 4 hours (which was my goal).

When I am 80 I will look at my St George medal and I will remember puking for 4 miles, but then pushing on and finishing the race anyway, and coming in under 3:40 (which was my goal).

When I am 80 I will look at my Ogden medal and I will remember that for the first time I really pushed myself in a race, beyond what i thought I could do. I will remember running the race without a plan or a goal and surprising myself.

And, hopefully I will have a medal that I can look at when I am 80 and think, "This was the race where I finally got that 3:05 that Sasha predicted, that 3"05 that I did not think was possible."

I like my medals! Where are they? Shoved in a drawer right now because I still remember those races all too well. BUT one day they will serve as reminders of what I did, what I accomplished, and how much fun I had doing it.

Sasha, you are an amazing man and runner and we all appreciate what we you do. The time and effort you put into this site is very much appreciated. You are so willing to help out those who want the help and ask for it and it does not go unnoticed. BUT I have to say that I keep reading these posts and it feels like you are trying to force everyone to think the way you do and that is not going to happen. A little healthy debate is always good, but recently it seems like people are being lambasted when they should be congratulated for whatever accomplishment they have made, whether you feel it is a valid accomplishment or not does not matter. It feels like the army, where they think they have to tear you down before they can build you up. You are entitled to your beliefs, you are entitled to share them and justify them, but it seems so harsh and mean lately. It makes me sad.

And, as for the cop, Scott said he would have let you off, too! He said it was a grueling marathon and people who bust their butts to FINISH a marathon deserve a free pass every once in a while. He also said to stop speeding! ;-)

Sasha- would not something positive get your point across without the negative feelings? Something like, "Luz, you did great, congrats on your marathon. And think how much faster you can go next time if you just make XXX little improvements..." Gives encouragement and advice without creating feelings of resentment. Remember, us "soft" Americans do not like blunt criticism as much as Russians ;)

I think I've just wasted several paragraphs of typing, the point does not appear to be understood. Never mind.

Sahsa I remember that read and have been there myself. I just think that just because people like a token for there accomplishment that is doesn't mean they don't want that PR and will just give up because there is a medal at the end waiting. If that was the case most of us probably would have walked the last 6 miles. I know I fought my way to the end, and each time we do that we get mentally stronger. I do get it though, really I do. It just pains me that you can't be more light hearted about it.

Loved the story Luzy. And enjoy reading about the debate. Very interesting. A lot of different views have been shared. All I can say that in different races I have had. I have learned many different things. Mostly what not to do. And some have gone well and really great. But each one has it worth and value to me. The ones that I did my best and ones that left me cramped and pushing on without quiting. Yet still asking myself if I did this or that would it of made me hit my goal?? That is why I do it. The medals mean less and less to me as I come short of my goals in a sense. And I have given my last 2 away to my girls for things I thought were worthy of a medal that they did. Because it would mean something to them. Not to say medals arent good or bad. But that they have different meaning to me. I enjoy having this blog and the lift I get from it and how I look forward to posting and reading other peoples success. But more the way people have overcome different injuries and challenges that they are facing.

I want to be faster and I want to make my personal goals. Medal or no medal. Money or no money(because I will never be at that level). But because this is what I do as a hobby and what I do to be a better me for my wife, family and friends. We are all trying to be a better us. And its the races that we test ourselves to see where we are. And so much can happen on that race day. There is magic and there is some rain storms with head winds but we still do it. And when we dont make it we come back for more.

Just because we happen to not agree with someone's point does not mean that we do not understand. I understand your point fully Sasha, I do not agree. That is all. It is a free country and I expressed my opinion very respectfully and tastefully, at least I thought I did.

Last thing I will say here: I have watched this type of discussion going on for the last few months across blogs and in the discussion forum. I have read them, and vented in my head, but kept quiet. I have said nothing because I felt like it would do no good. Sasha and I obviously do not agree, so why discuss it? I am not going to change his mind (nor is anyone else), and he is certainly not going to change mine (although I listen and I do understand his point of view). Plus, Sasha is an expert in this field (running) and knows far more than I will ever know. BUT, if there is one thing that I enjoy doing and that I feel like I can do, it is to boost other people up. I "waste" my time going from blog to blog, commenting on every race report that I can every weekend, checking on lone faithfuls, and just hunting for new runners out there. I do this because people on this blog have built me up and I want to return the favor. I am not a saint, believe me, but I just feel a little positive talk and encouragement goes a long way.

There is constructive criticism and then there is just flat out criticism for whatever reason. The difference between the two id HUGE.

I have been lying in bed totally ill with the flu watching this debate rage on. 1) Thank you Sasha for the blog; the forum to discuss our differing opinions and interest in running; and for taking a good deal of time to explain why you think it is dangerous to be self-congratulatory for any performance less than one that represents a raw drive to perform at one's personal best. 2) I have to say how deeply offended I am .....I just can not believe JD thinks I got out of that ticket beause I'm a girl :).

I think that was JD's retaliation for me saying men never listen.

Feel better.

Luz - so sorry to hear you are sick (blame it on Marion's daughter). I hope you get to feeling better soon!

:-)

Love you guys (er..girls...)

America is sure a free country, but this is my site. I pay for the hardware and the bandwidth, and have written the software. When you make a post or a comment, a lot happens behind the scenes. Thus even though you sit at your computer and are typing up your thoughts, you are a guest at my house literally - that is where the server is located, and that is where all of those posts and comments end up. Easy to forget, but true. The free country argument very much does not apply.

While I am willing to allow the use of the Fast Running Blog resources to discuss ideas differing from my own, there is a limit. For example, I do not want the Blog to become a forum for promoting ideas I believe to be harmful to the progression of a runner, even if 90% of the runners hold on to such ideas and feel strongly about it.

I have some ideas to share, I have collected them from 24 years of experience, I have a decent intuition for what works and what does not, and when I see a red flag in somebody's training, recovery, or mental approach, I will sometimes speak up when I think it will make a difference, or sometimes hoping against hope that it will make a difference, but the flag is just too red for me to hold back. If you really want to understand, I will clarify the best I can, if you disagree, then prove yourself by following your own ideas and improving.

Sorry you are sick my dear, feel better:)

Yes Luz- feel better :) Do you need something??? Anything?

OKay, I said I was done, I lied. Wow, I did not realize I had been so offensive. In fact I felt I had been very careful to be respectful.

This is indeed YOUR site Sasha and I will keep my comments to myself as I have for the past several months. I enjoy talking to myself, anyway, that is why I blog.

I typed a lot more, but it is just not worth it. Confrontation is not my thing and this blatant attack on me has me in tears. Maybe you think I asked for it, I do not know nor do I care. I never intended any kind of personal attack on you or your beliefs, just support for those who have a different perspective and were having to defend it. And I will shut up now for good.

Sorry LuzyLew!!

Sasha, you have explained yourself very well. I don't know if you are speaking to me personally, or a pervasive attitude in general you would rather squelch than see continue here on the blog. However, if you are speaking to me personally--I understand. I think I also understand your generosity in wanting us all to be the very best we can be when we do put it all on the line. That is the inspiring part. My primary interest however, remains, to just keep on running.

Luzy, So sorry you're not feeling well. Get better soon!!!

Well I wasnt going to blog on here but decided to Luzy loved your story really did, ace the policeman let you off, Ive been let off a few times and Im sure if I was a man it wouldnt have been the same LOL.

I agree and disagree with allot of points Sash and everyone else have blogged, I dont have real strong opinions at the best of times..

I joined this blog because it said fast, I wasnt looking for a blog never saw the point of blogging, but I though this is so much easier than using the computer system I was using for my training, basically filling in stuff in a calendar so this is perfect for me and has worked at treat with my training and seeing how I am doing....

Yes I got the blog bug, started putting more about how I feel rather than just what Ive done...

Thanks Sasha for having the use of the blog its perfect for me..

Everyone else I know were your all coming from I really do, but at the end of the day Sasha has provided a free service, not many things you get in this world for free... but also I agree with your opinions to some extent.

Sorry Luzy your feeling ill, and Im sorry Kelli, you have been taken the wrong way as I see it you werent being offensive, I think both sides are being a little too touchy here but dont jump on and have a go at me for saying this, just my thoughts that its got a little too heated for one comment about medals so please all stay carry on having fun blogging and get your own personal accomplishments and get faster along the way.

Luz- are you ok? Are you better yet???

Luz, we've missed you....are you okay? Hope things are going well!

Luz, we miss you. Are you having a great vacation back east? Take lotsa pictures!