Wheeler Farm Loops

Schedule that massage!! It'll help.

Really good workout, by the way! I do like how you did a split of MP and HMP in each mile repeat.

Nice workout coming back off the 1/2. I wanted to ask you some training advice, kinda what you do and prefer with tempo work. You mention you have a tempo loop. I know some that do most of their tempos down hill (as lots of races are downhill) simulate training for their races. I've always done my tempos on flat or rolling courses, prob due to primarily racing on the track for years and didn't need a bit of "downhill" training. Most of the "important" races are flat sea level courses anyways. What is your tempo loop and what do you prefer? Aided tempos or more of a flat tempo or rolling tempos courses? I'm sure there are some benefits to get one's legs accustomed to the down hill running and prob recovery can be quicker after races... I'm just curious what you do and have seen successful.

Great workout Jake! Do you think the track is better than the roads for your hamstring?

Get that hamstring scraped...it is the most amazing pain you will ever experience. :)

Trevor - I do most tempos and longer road reps on a 1.3 mile loop near home. It is pretty much flat. And i know the marks so i dont have to rely as much on the garmin. I'll also use the Sugar House Park loop (1.4 miles) when I want to work in some tougher hills (and just adjust the pace accordingly). I actually try to avoid the downhill tempos as much as I can... I'll do them once in a while if I have a DH marathon coming up or I am trying to ease back into workouts after some down time and work on turnover, but for half marathons like UV or TOU, I don't think you need a ton of it, especially when running higher volume (the quads get strong enough from that). I feel like I get a better sense of my fitness from using flatter road loops and the track. Now, a course like STG requires a lot more specific downhill training, but that's a different story.

Rachelle - the track is just a little softer... I don't think the turns are bothersome for my hamstrings as long as i am not trying to hug the inside stripe too closely.

Trevor, I'll jump in on that ?. In my opinion, a key workout like these tempos or mile repeats should be done on something real or "fair" like a loop or rolling/flat out and back as to not give you a fake sense of being in better shape than you are. That being said, it's not a bad idea to have some of your runs - even a few of the harder ones - on terrain similar to key races.

I guess Jake beat me to it - not the first time and definitely not the last!

Thanks guys. Always felt the the honest loops were the best for me at least. At UVU many of my team mates would have the "fake" sense of reality of where their fitness was at whether it be from doing specific workouts or courses that makes them think they can run a 15 min 5k when they have only ran 1530 once in their lives... I'm more of a realist and I like to be honest with myself where my fitness is at. That's the best way to improve and reap the joys and rewards that come from hard work in my mind. Sorry to distract from your workout at all by asking the question Jake. I'm always fine tuning and educating myself the best I can.

The question distracting from the workout is a good thing! These are good discussions...

I agree with Dave - while you don't want to get too caught up in comparing workouts, its still good for them to be on repeatable terrain. For example, I know when I can do this workout with every rep under 5:00 without killing myself, I'm probably in shape to run ~1:06 on a flat course.

If you're running a race (especially a marathon) and can train on the course or on very similar terrain, that's a bonus. Its important to replicate the hard parts of the courses as much as the easy parts. So if I'm running TOU, which I probably will, I want my long tempos to simulate the second half of that course. I know I can run the first 13 downhill pretty easily.

In prep for the summer 5K/10Ks around here, I'd do most of the tempos flat... that way you get a real honest assessment of where you are at.

The main thing I like about downhill tempos or intervals is the increased leg turnover. This is nice when your key race is down at sea level, and it makes it easier to simulate race pace on a sea level course. When you go to sea level, your lungs may be loving the air, but your legs aren't loving the pace, at least not for long durations.

Also, the nice thing about running downhill is that you usually have to run uphill to get there! Nothing better than a nice uphill tempo run followed by a downhill cruise...or progression. It's the main thing I miss about Utah...I don't have good courses for that out here in Fort Collins.

With Paul's comment - the uphill to get to the downhill is the main thing I see SO many people skip here in Southern Utah. They just go hit the St. George course week after week (it has started already and the marathon is almost 4 months out), with the excuse of training for the downhill but never working on any uphill. Obviously you need some downhill specific for our canyon courses in Utah, but don't forget the strength training of the uphill to get there - and you get the added bonus of having your legs tired by the time you come back down, so you are really practicing for race day!

Yeah, there is definitely that neuromuscular coordination component to the downhill running, especially if you are on a route that isn't just "point your shoulders down and go." Provo River Trail is a good example. Its faster than flat, but you still have to work for it, and you can get the turnover you wouldn't otherwise.

When I do an up/down canyon run, I try to make the pace honest on the way up, not just jog easy and save it all for the down. That way you're getting the best of both.

I've tried many variations of workouts over the years, and discovered that I get the best results when I do about 2/3 of my fast mileage down 1-2% grade, and the rest either flat or up 1-2% grade. This comes with a disclaimer though - I have a problematic spine - missing section of L-4. This makes me rely heavily on the quads for the bounce-back since the spine cannot do proper shock-absorption. So I need to be careful with large volume of uphill running, and it is best for me to break it down with downhill - otherwise I quickly learn to plod.

I anticipate that a smooth runner with a normal spine will do best with 50% down and 50% up or flat. Or maybe even only 30% down and 70% up/flat.

I'd agree with that as well. Just looking back on my workouts in the last couple weeks of workouts leading up to races like UV Marathon, TOU Half/Full, I probably did about 30% of my "fast" miles on 1-2% downhill. That was enough in all of those cases to get my legs ready for the turnover of going down the canyons.

And I've found that typically I've come off those races and been able to hit good workouts on my flat routes, which has translated into good races on flat courses.

The effort, uphill and downhill, is constant on the tempo, right? I understand this workout to be independent of the hill blasts, where there is more effort on the up. Is that right?

Maybe constant effort, but not the pace. I think what most of us are talking about here are marathon/half-marathon paced miles. So where I might run 5:15-5:20 pace on a typical tempo run, maybe I'm running 5:00-5:05 at the same effort on a downhill route. And running uphill at that effort, especially at our altitude, is going to yield something quite a bit slower, maybe somewhere in the 5:40s.

The hill blasts are short, intense bursts. They're working a different energy system. And when I do them consistently for about a month, I have a tendency to strain my hamstring... so I'm done w/ them for now! :-)

Tom - I just realized you said effort, not pace. So I answered a question you weren't quite asking :-)

Tom - effort is multi-dimensional. There is neurological effort, muscular effort, and cardiovascular effort. Then inside of those there are obscure sub-divisions of effort. We do not understand them, but we intuitively know they exist. In the end each type of terrain is its own piece of music and it has its own fingerprint of stimulus. Thus the art of choosing the terrain balance is knowing what you need for best performance. You can develop that sense by paying attention of how you feel on different terrains. What you are after is the feeling of power, smoothness, and ease. If a certain terrain combination leaves you feeling like you've been fighting windmills working against yourself, that's bad. If it leaves you feeling smooth and speedy, that's good.

Jake, I just read your article in Run Utah magazine that you have linked to your site here. GREAT ARTICLE! Thanks so much for sharing.

Thanks for the replies, Jake and Sasha. Sasha, that is one well thought out response! I am just now learning what I need for best performance. Sorry for dragging the conversation off subject.