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May 03, 2024

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Location:

Logan,UT,United States

Member Since:

Apr 08, 2005

Gender:

Male

Goal Type:

Other

Running Accomplishments:

Former Course Record Holder (it was a good run while it lasted...)

Logan Peak Trail Race

Completely addicted to trail running

Short-Term Running Goals:

2016 Race Schedule

TBD...

Long-Term Running Goals:

Who knows?

Personal:

Link to my Wife and I's Photo and Running blog -

Click to donate

to Ukraine's Armed Forces

Miles:	This week:	0.00	Month:	0.00	Year:	0.00
Microspikes Lifetime Miles:						408.50
PI EMotion Trail N1 Lifetime Miles:						357.00
MT1010SA Lifetime Miles:						120.50
Rapa Nui 2 Lifetime Miles:						305.50
Altra Olympus Lifetime Miles:						555.80
PI Emotion Trail N2 Lifetime Miles:						312.50
PI Emotion Trail M2 Lifetime Miles:						328.50
2015 Trail Miles Lifetime Miles:						2047.50
2015 Road Miles Lifetime Miles:						490.00
2015 Mtn Bike Miles Lifetime Miles:						58.00
Altra Impulse 1.0 Lifetime Miles:						46.00
Altra Lone Peak 2.5 Lifetime Miles:						242.00
Altra Paradigm (blue) Lifetime Miles:						102.00
LP 3.0 Tester Lifetime Miles:						64.50
Altra One2 Lifetime Miles:						14.00
Altra Paradigm 2.0 Lifetime Miles:						92.00
Altra LP NS HT Lifetime Miles:						95.00
Altra Torin 2.5 Red Lifetime Miles:						7.00

Tue, Jul 31, 2007

Slow miles	Fast miles	Total Distance
10.55	3.10	13.65

This morning I ran out to the Planet Walk and tried to get the body going. I stared out at 7:30 pace and then tried to get going. It was a struggle to break 7 min pace over the next 3 miles. I ran into Paul warming up and joined him. We went over to Logan High Track and met with Logan and James for a speed workout.

I ended up doing 5x1000m @ CV pace with 1:30 rest in-between. The 1000's were supposed to be around 5:40 - 5:45 pace. I ended up just a touch fast, but close.

3:31 (5:33)

3:34 (5:40)

3:32 (5:36)

3:34 (5:40)

3:32 (5:36)

I was suprised I could do it when during the warmup 7 min pace was so difficult. I guess that is what a warmup is for right? I felt ok, I still have lingering soreness from sat but better than last night. It sure was fun watching everyone else run (as they all were well in-front of me the whole time). Logan and Paul were moving pretty good. They got a great workout in too. I did a few very slow laps after and then headed home at an easy pace.

PM: Rode my bike over to Logan High for an encore. Only this time it was on the grass barefoot and much slower. An easy 3.25 miles around the fields with 2x100m striders. I couldn't resist doing some striders while barefoot but after 2 it got old fast. Nice and windy out.

25:48 (7:56) 144 ave

Comments

From Jon on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 14:14:05

CV pace?

From Sasha Pachev on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 14:39:20

This happens to me all the time. I have to work to hit 8:00 in a warm-up, then I ran a great workout. On the other hand, if 6:40 feels too easy in a warm-up, I often end up having trouble in the workout.

From cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 15:11:10

Jon-

CV is Critical Velocity pace. It is a term that I think Daniels invented. It is a speed between VO2Max and LT. Basically the speed you could hold for 40 min. (Just slower than 10K pace).

I find it helpful for not killing myself but yet getting a LT-like workout in. It actually has helped anything from 5K to 1/2 marathon for me.

Sasha-

I agree with you. Just goes to show, don't give up and go home based on the first impressions of a run. Stick it out and you will probably be just fine.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 17:24:08

Actually, CV was invented by coach Tinman. It's a strange pace that few people use, but I started using it this year instead of V02Max and LT, and feel that it has helped a lot. Nice article here:

http://www.peakrunningperformance.com/docs/Critical_Velocity.htm

From Cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 18:37:24

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking that but wasn't sure. Besides, tinman is half Daniels anyway.

I need to be careful not to run faster than my CV pace as he states in the article.

From Cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 18:49:31

Paul,

Correct me if I am wrong but here are my calculations:

Adjusted 10K PR = 36:00

5K PR = 17:08

VO2Max (5K Pace) = 5:30 miles

8% off VO2Max = CV = 26 seconds = 5:56 per mile

That seems slow, but probably accurate. In that case, today's workout was more VO2Max than CV pace. I was thinking my CV was closer to 5:45.

What do you think?

From Logan on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 19:23:02

Nice workout this morning. I think I will have to continue joining you guys up in Logan every now and then.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 19:50:53

Everyone is half Daniels. I think Tinman might be more influenced by Lydiard, but whatever.

When tinman's book comes out, we'll have more accurate estimates. But for now, I usually like to split the difference between LT and V02Max. For you, our best estimate for LT pace (pace you can hold for one hour) comes from your Freedom Run 15K, where you averaged 5:50/mile for nearly 55 minutes. Based off this, I would estimate your LT to be in the 5:55/mile range. 5:30/mile is a solid estimate of your V02Max pace. Based on this, I don't think 5:45/mile is too far off the high end of your CV pace. 5:50/mile may be more appropriate for a marathoner. There is definitely a range in CV, and the "faster" end will develop V02Max more and the "slower" end will develop lactate threshold more. But either way, both are being developed.

BTW, I think your flat 10K time would be more like 35:30.

From Cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 20:07:17

Thanks Paul,

I think that makes more sense. I am totally guessing on the 10K flat time, but you are probably closer than what I guessed. It sounds better at least. I need to start to do some LT training runs. I don't think I have done any. I do CV's and Tinman tempos but nothing in-between. Would it help, or by doing those other 2 do I hit my LT stimulus also?

I ask as I am now changing over my mentality from 5K/10K to 1/2 marathon specific workouts.

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 20:17:11

You get LT stimulus from both tinman tempos and CVs. That's the beauty of them. However, I like to throw in a formal, "Daniels-style" LT workout every other week or so instead of of CV. Something like 3x2-mile, 2x1-mile for a total of 8 LT miles. That keeps things fresh, but brutal. The same thing goes for MP: I'll throw in some long MP intervals or tempo every so often instead of tinman tempo.

From Jon on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 20:49:57

So would you say LT and CV are better for marathon training than V02 max?

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 21:11:05

I would say that V02Max is absolutely useless for marathoning. Without hyperbole.

From Cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 21:49:13

We are going to have to pay you for training tips.

I have been told by someone who is much faster then me (you don't know him), that I should run once a week or every other week 3 miles all out. I mean, give it everything. By doing that, you are supposed to run better. Sounds like a VO2Max workout to me. Kind of a crazy tempo run. It makes sense for 5K speed but not marathon. Do you agree?

From Paul Petersen on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 22:30:19

This would definitely be a V02Max workout, and a punishing one at that. This guy is essentially proposing a 5K time-trial every 1 to 2 weeks. I suppose this is no different than racing a 5K every week, which is what most high school and college runners do during their season. I think it would be better just to jump in a couple races every month and rather than do time trials as workouts. Much more fun and mentally easy.

But I think doing a 5K time trial or race EVERY WEEK would be detrimental to marathon-specific training, because it would distract effort from more valuable training stimulus (ie MP, LT, etc.). But for a 5K-10K runner, I think racing 5K-10K every week or every other week is proper.

From Jon on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 23:40:48

Cody wins for the longest thread in a while.

From Cody on Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 23:50:21

And you started it all with two words...You had no idea your question would open up that can of worms...

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