Buttsweat Towel© season has begun

Ha! Remember, only increase your mileage 10%.

haha. have you decided on your next race?

Sub 3 fella - nice ring to that:)

Careful not to push it too soon.

Superwoman wants to know what's your next race, I'm thinking was Joe messing about the 5k's...

A famous pilot (not quite as famous as you) once said, 'I feel the need for speed.' What do you think, Joe? Do you feel the need for speed?

Bouncing back nicely.

Tracy - Gotta listen to runner's world, right?!

April - nex race is in 2 weeks...a 5k!

Bam - exactly! I know it's hard to develop speed at my age but I think I'm hitting a plateau unless I can bring that 5k time down. Does that make sense? Give me some advice here! What would you do?

I think you are wise to step away from the marathon and work on the 5k. If you improve your 5k time, you are more likely to improve at most longer distances.

Even though you are a youngster, you can easily improve both your pure speed and your 5k speed.

I'd suggest looking at John Kellogg's base training ideas - they are on Lets run on the forum, if you can't find them I'll fire them over to you. Do this for about 3 months, without putting in too many miles, and then move into 8-12 weeks of 'tame' multi-tier training, over three week cycles.

By tame, I mean, do one 10k/half marathon pace/marathon pace session a week, one 5k/3k/1500m pace session a week, and a session of short hill blasts (8x8 secs-2 min walk rec between blasts). All other runs should be very easy and no longer than 45 mins - one hour.

Your long run (13-15 miles) will include your 10k pace/half/mararthon pace session. Note you are not plodding here, you are working.

What I've suggested you do, is exactly what I'm doing. The key to it is making sure you recover on the recovery days; if you don't, you'll end up injured/stale and blame it on the faster sessions. The reason why most people get injured when they do intervals is because they don't recover properly between sessions. 'I don't do speed work because I always get injured, blah blah blah.' You have to prepare for and respect faster work. If you do, you will make massive gains. Equally, after about 6 months of build up and racing, you must take a week - two weeks off to allow your body to recover from the work. Then you go again.

You can also do a shorter version of this prior to a marathon build up and carry your 5k speed into your marathon training, which is what most top guys do.

For me, Sundays will become the 5k/3k/1500m session, Wednesdays will be 10k/half/marathon pace session and Fridays will be hill blasts.

I'm using Kellogg's base approach and doing the strides at vvo2/LT reps on Sundays and the progression/high end tempo runs on Wednesdays and I'm doing the hill blasts on Fridays.

So, the strides will develop into LT reps and then into intervals and the progression runs will develop into 3x2 miles/2x4 miles at hmp/8 miles at mp.

The 5k session is, 4x1mile at 5k pace off 90 sec walk/jog. The 3k session is, 5x800m at 3k pace off 90 sec walk/jog rec. The 1500m session is 8x400m 1500m pace of 90 sec jog/walk rec.

(Note the sessions - 400's, 800's, 1 mile, 2 miles, 4 miles 8 miles.)

Your (5k pace session)mile reps should be 4-5 secs slower per 400m than your (3k pace session) 800m reps. Your (3k pace session)800m reps should be 4-5 secs slower than your (1500m pace session)400m reps.

Each time you come round to do your session of mile reps, the reps should be 4-6 secs faster than the last time you did the session: eg:5:30 - 5:25 - 5:21 and so on. The mile reps will pretty much give you a bang on 5k predictor. Your 800m reps should improve by 2 secs and your 400m reps should improve by 1 sec.

At the moment, I doubt I could break 20 mins for 5k. By September, if all goes well, I hope to be running 15:35-45:)

Any questions, give me a shout. It's easy really:)

Bam - thanks for typing that out, great stuff. I think I got it now. I'll look up the JK stuff. bring the pain!

I think Vo2 max is an innate number (a theory I would question), but it can be tuned even late (it easier earlier in life I would imagine). You might never set a cracker 5k PR, but is that what you want to do? If so, getting going! But I think with regular Vo2 max and LT workouts you can tune those numbers nicely, even during a marathon buildup. I think this buildup I dropped 20-30 seconds off my V02 max and LT paces.

But why not give your plan a shot, take Bam's advice and the book he mentions into account? It sounds like something you've wanted to try. See where it goes!

Jason - yeah, that's definitely the plan. 800s at 3k pace...OUCH. I also think it would be cool to run a 4:59 mile. I don't even know if it would be possible for me at this stage but I would have fun training for it. I can worry about another marathon later.

Jason, I agree with you about VO2 Max etc, I suspect you read the Magness stuff. But here's the rub(s):

Joe might have a high VO2 Max...

Yes, with regular VO2 max and LT workouts in marathon build-ups you are likely to lower your 5k time. But if you train specifically for the 5k, you'll lower your 5k time by much more and therefore, you'll be in a stronger position when it comes to your marathon build-up.

And, you shouldn't really be doing 5k or LT workouts in your marathon build-up. Maybe some lactate utilisation stuff towards the end of your training, but that's it. The 5k and LT workouts are what cause the problems at 22miles-26 miles:) But people just don't seem to get that and they carry on making the same mistake every 6 months as they plough on through marathon after marathon after marathon.

If you - Jason - were to change course after your next marathon and spend 12-18 months working at your 5k and 10k times and then come back to the marathon, you'd find yourself running 2:25-2:28(ish)rather than what will happen...:)

[EDIT] Joe, there's a bit more to it than I've outlined, but not a lot. I'll put a little package together and fire it over to you - just give me a few days.

Bam - you're a goldmine, thanks. I think I found the JK thread on LRC.

For 5k-specific training, are you just doing a lot of reps at goal pace (like the 4 x 1), or more of the mix that you outlined above? I'm guessing the multi-tier 3-week cycles is what helps the 5k most, and then when I'm ready for a marathon again it goes to the MP tempos? Is training for the mile too short/specific, or would that help the ol' marathon time too?

The mile question's a good one. But I think because of the aerobic/anaerobic mix of the mile, it makes it too far removed to have a major influence on your marathon time.

By including mile pace stuff in your 5k training, you'll hit the spot in terms of getting more 'speed' and better running economy, which will help your marathon training.

For the 5k, you need to train at faster and slower than race pace. Hence the 3k and 1500m pace sessions. And then, you've got the slower paced stuff, 10k, hm, marathon pace stuff.

If you just train at 5k pace, your body will get used to this and you'll get diminishing returns. By mixing it up, the body doesn't know what's coming next.

It is important, however, to keep the sessions the same. You'll hear people say you shouldn't do the same sessions over - pants. If you repeat sessions, you can see the improvements etc.

The way I've outlined the 5k multi-tier system is filtered and easier than what the top guys would do: I couldn't handle hard track work every other day and I don't think it's wise for anybody to do that intensity, unless they're on drugs:)

If you do the three months of Kellogg build up and then move into 5k multi-tier training, you will annihilate your 5k and 10k pr's. If you then take that speed into your marathon build up, all things being equal etc, you'll be looking more at 2:30 rather than 2:55.

I'll get that stuff over to you...

Ok, got it. The mile stuff will be mixed into the 5k training anyway and my mile time will come down. Last question (I know you're sending stuff, just want to clear this up), do I really need base-building time? I just came off the highest mileage I've ever run, maybe the highest mileage I ever will run...why not start the new training now, before the mornings get too hot to get in useful workouts? I'm sure there's a reason, just curious; it looks like JK's "pre-season" stuff has a bunch of strides, progressions, etc, which is great and probably what I need after a marathon anyway. So, probably can't go wrong either way.

Another good question:-)

Simple answer, yes and no:-) It depends how serious a dent you want to make in your 5k-marathon pr's.

The JK base isn't so much about the miles; notice I said not to do too many miles. It's more about the strides/LT reps and how they lead into the multi-tier training.

Also, the strides are not really strides - they're done at about 3k pace. Sounds easy but they are quite taxing if done properly. You build up to, 3x6x45 secs + an 8 min effort at the end of the session, done at 95 percent.

You'll benefit more from doing the 12 week base, not just physically but psychologically too. It'll all make sense when I fire over the stuff:-)

Sorry Joe, I couldn't get on the computer and had to use Grace's multi pad and I didn't answer your question properly.

If you went straight into the multi-tier training, you would probably end up injured or very stale. You need a bit of time to recover from the marathon and all the training. You also need to gradually introduce the higher intensity work.

The base will facilitate the neurological adaptations necessary for the increased speed of the workouts. Your running style will probably change as you become more efficient and you'll discover muscles and tendons that you didn't know existed:)

Another question you asked was about the mp sessions replacing the multi tier sessions. The answer to that is simply, no:)

Your long run would change and the multi-tier session would transition into long intervals at 112%-102% faster than pmp and your easy/rec days would morph into slighty longer recovery runs:) But that's a different ball game.

Joe and SuperBam,

I am very interested in the conversation you guys are having regarding the 5k training. I too would like to work on that aspect of my running during the summer months. I'm trying to interpret all of the LT's, Vo2's and LRC's but don't quite understand all of it. Bam, would you mind sharing the secrete "stuff" with me too?

IJR - sent you an email.

IJR - hahaha, I'm liking the old SuperBam sobriquet.

Just got back from my second run - that's what us champs who haven't raced yet do: run twice a day; or at least, make out that we run twice a day:)

I got your message and of course I'll let you into the SuperBam Secret Running Club (SBSRC). Don't tell anybody, but our goal is for us oldies to end up faster than those young poseurs, I don't have to mention their names but you know the ones - they shave their legs and all that malarkey.

I'll get some SBSRC food and then I'll drop you a coded message which will initiate your membership:)