High-Octane

Welcome back, looks like you've put in a good bit of work since Cowtown. I guess that's one of the benefits of pulling out early (shorter recovery). Let me know if you end up signing up for OKC (my wife might run the half). Either way, I think you'll still be in excellent shape for the BQ.

Glad to have you back on IJR! NOw I have a reason to post something.

looks like a very good run. I can't imagine choosing to do it on a treadmill, unless it was super icy or pouring down rain. Good way to practice even pacing, though.

Welcome back Preston ... you have 54 more days to be ready! :) We all know what you are capable of & are pulling for you. Just be smart with your training, those slower paced runs can produce great adaptations when you are sore or tired!

Hi Guys!

Joe,

Although I really didn't feel like it (physically or mentally) I pushed myself to go ahead and start running four days after the partial marathon. I really felt pretty bad after the race but I just pushed through it. I hope that soreness is not an indication of poor endurance. I don't know if it was all mental or somewhat physical but between mile 16 and 22 I convinced myself I couldn't have run fast enough anyway. I'm going to try and train really hard for the next few weeks and hopefully be ready for OKC.

DL,

I was supprised I felt very comfortable for the first 10 miles, I started to feel a little tire after 13 but my legs still felt good. It was really windy here this morning and I just didn't want to fight the wind.

JG,

Just like last year I'm just making my training up as I go along now in between Ft Worth and OKC. I feel I need to run some longer miles so I'm not going to do much interval training for a while. I'm just feeling that my endurance is just not strong enough. Hopefully my legs will hold up to the extra miles.

I thought I was the only one allowed to make up my training as I go along! lol

I would say it was mostly mental, heck I would have stopped running at 13, you had to be right near the finish line! Kudos to you to have the mental strength to keep pace another 3 ... and then continue another 6!!

I think it is wise to increase mileage to help prepare you for that last 10k ... but like I said, slow miles are great for that. If you push mileage with running too many fast, that is when you will be most susceptible to injury. All predictors point to you having the speed to easily BQ ... building slow miles will help get you to the finish.

Here is what Hansen says for last 8 weeks before running a 3:25 marathon (7:49 pace):

Something along the lines of ...

* 3 days easy running, 8:49 to 9:28 pace)

* 1 day 8-10 miles at MGP, 7:49

* 1 day repeats of (6 x 1 mile, 4 x 1.5, 3x2, 2x3, 3x2, 4x 1.5, 6x1 ... all run at MGP minus 10 seconds) 7:39 pace * Long runs every other week @ MP plus 40 seconds ... 8:29 pace ... these should all be 16 miles, but only 10 2 weeks before race.

* On alternating Long run weeks, you run 10 miles @ 8:29, but you run 8-10 the day before in the Easy pace range.

Ok ... here is the explanation, but if you read the book, it makes lots of sense. This is completely different than Run Less, Run Faster ... where you are used to running balles to the walls 3 days a week & cross training in between. By running more days, you get the effect of cumulative mileage training ... but you can not run the same paces because if you increase mileage & don't slow down, you WILL get injured. The slow miles provide the necessary adaptations to your body that will allow you to keep going strong at the 20 mile mark on race day ... but running high mileage with too much at race pace leaves one over-trained & susceptible to injury.

I would highly recommend getting the book to help guide you over the next 8 weeks ... you obviously have the base & training to jump right into the advanced program for the last 8 weeks.

I pretty much outlined it for you above, but the book will really help you understand how to put it all together & why running at a 9:00 pace range on your easy days is what you need to be doing.

Cheers :)

Feel free to disagree with my advice Joe & offer another perspective, I just think he needs to rethink the paces he was utilizing from RLRF ... it is a completely different philosophy. I think RLRF helped increase your speed & keep you clear of some of the injury issues you were having when you started it ... just realize you need to adjust your workouts if you are increasing mileage ... let the principles in RLRF collect dust for a little while! :)

Sorry for the book ... I am just spewing Hansons philosophy ... not mine! lol

'Hansons Marathon Method'

I think you deserve a BQ for being able to run 15 miles on a treadmill!

As for the what JG said, I think there is no replacement for mileage up to a certain point. That point is where you get the most bang for the buck. It is different for everyone. But let's say at 60 miles a week you get 90% benefit - anything over that will be incremental - running 20 more miles a week might get you a 5% improvement, but at the same time the risk for injury goes up substantially. The best explanation of this is in Jack Daniel's book - Daniel's Running Formula. So getting to the right mileage level for each individual runner takes a lot of trial and error. It is the right combination of speed, threshold, and endurance mileage that results in a successful marathon, IMO. Can one run a good marathon on 40 miles a week? - maybe, but it won't be the best and the last 4 miles are going to hurt. So in that regard I must agree with JG. At the same time, I am not sure I would make significant changes with 8 weeks to go. One option is to continue to follow the RLRF program but instead of cross training run a 45-60 min recovery run. I even remember reading the authors saying this was acceptable. I think the additional mileage will pay dividends. This is scientifically proven. A lot of my recovery and double day mileage is 8:00 - 9:00 pace. Funny, I just came across this which pretty much reiterates what I just said above, he even quotes the same book. LOL. http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/increaseornot.shtml

Read this one too:

http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/safeincreasing.shtml

Yep, pretty much what I said ... increase your mileage but eliminate the speed work & reduce your pace(intensity) on most of your runs. Fyi, Hansen does speedwork in the first 8 weeks of the program, but they transition to the strength sessions outlined above. I would stay far away from the RLRF workouts if you are increasing mileage ...

My point was not to try to tell you what to do ... but it was for you to dial into establishing an 8 week plan. Running based solely on what you feel like while trying increase mileage is a dangerous recipe ... been there, done that!

I could easily run a 100 miles a week without injury if I was willing to run all 9 minute miles ... I would prove it next week by running 100 miles, but I don't have 900 minutes to devote to running ... not counting all the prep time, showers & doing laundry that would come with it!

Formulate a plan that works for you, 4 different authors will tell you 4 different ways ... but really they all have the same foundation of knowledge & physiological principles ... but don't follow the workouts in a plan that has you running 3 hard workouts a week if you want to increase mileage.

IJR, I am a fan of high mileage like JG and derhammer. (Not that I do it... work and family life don't allow it)

If you are racing another marathon in 8 weeks, remember that most of the training that will improve your race performance has already been done. I recommend focusing on full recovery and running consistently (as long as you are rested).

Don't focus too much on building mileage. Endurance is something you develop slowly over many training cycles through many years.

Very good points Carl ... & I would agree Preston is already 85-90% ready for a successful marathon ... with 6 weeks of fine tuning, he will be ready to roll. I actually am not personally a fan of high mileage, although I don't think anyone would argue that gradually increasing mileage over time will lead to a faster marathon as long as it is done wisely & one stays injury free.

My best marathon definitely came after 12 months of increased mileage, as most peoples does. Since I don't particularly enjoy running 50, 60+ mileage weeks repetitively, I have accepted I have probably run my fastest marathon time & steered away from attempting to train to run one faster.

I am the one that steered Preston towards RLRF (a program most people do not endorse or like or recommend for a marathon) ... but Preston was battling injury issues with higher mileage & enjoys biking ... so I think it made sense for him. It definitely has helped his speed, but the question remains if he is adequately prepared to the last 6 miles the way he needs to.

I would still not be so quick to dismiss that program, because I don't think RLRF was necessarily the culprit with the last 6 miles of the two marathons he ran using the program ... although I do think some increased easy miles will help.

If you look at Cowtown '12, the issue was he went out the first 5 miles at a 7:12 pace & then ran the next 10 at a 7:30 pace ... really no surprise that he had a hard time continuing to run after 20 miles. No big deal, he had aspirations of running 3:15, but shooting for a 23 minute PR is risky business. I am pretty sure that on his RLRF training he could have BQ'd easily if he set out at a 7:50 pace instead of 7:15.

Next attempt was OKC, 2 months later (including 4 weeks of diminished training due to a strained hip)... odds were against him before he started ... racing 2 marathons 2 months apart is also risky business, especially when not 100% healthy. His pacing was great through 20 ... but he clearly not recovered from racing Cowtown & let's not forget it was 68 degrees, 90% humidity, windy & rainy! Again, I would argue that RLRF was not the culprit here.

Last attempt we will never know, because he was in such a determined zone to nail it, he forgot to follow the course. :) Oh well, these things happen.

Carl, while I agree he should not focus too much on 'building mileage' over this period, I don't think there is much danger if he keeps the paces slower & it will produce some adaptations in his body that will help carry him to a successful last 6 miles. Really, if you look at the weekly graph, with the exception of 2 50+ weeks, the training cycle for Cowtown was weeks in the 30's. Increasing to 45-60 is not a big jump if done wisely, especially since he was following a program where he was running mostly 3-4 days a week. Slowing the pace & running 6 days a week is not that dangerous ... he is just adding a couple Easy days of running instead of cross training.

Last point I will make & then I will shutup :) is that you have done plenty of 20+ milers in the last 8 weeks ... and there really is no benefit to go longer than 16-18 before OKC ... 20 milers simply place too much stress on the body ... save it for race day where you can rest for a week after. Most training plans, RLRF excluded, state that your long run should not represent more than 25-30% of your weekly mileage. Giving your weekly mileage the benefit of rounding up to 40 Preston, 30% equals 12 miles. While we would all agree a 12 mile long run would be foolish ... a 20 miler does not necessarily make sense either.

By adding a couple easy days of running, you can stay in the 30% range with a 16 mile run ... and if you do this at the conclusion of having already run 40 miles that week & 10 easy miles the day before ... that 16 miles simulates the last 16 of the marathon, not the first 16. On your mileage, that type of cumulative training will pay much higher dividends than running 20 miles.

While Hanson says you should not run longer than 16 miles to prepare for a marathon, I would not state that is true for everyone. For someone like DH or Joe who is consistently running 70 mile weeks, a 20 mile run is less than 30% of their weekly mileage ... & there body has adapted to that type of training regimen.

Just run with confidence Preston, your training is right on track!

Preston is going to hide his blog again if you guys keep it up!

Thanks guys, it's going to take a while to process all of this information. I haven't had a chance to read the articles DH sent me or order the book JG recommended.

My plan right now is to try and run about 60 miles a week...something like this:

Mon - rest

Tues - 10 @ 9:00 pace

Wed - 15 @ MP

Thurs - rest

Fri - 5-6 Tempo, 2-3 @ 9:00 pace

Sat - 10 @ 9:00 pace

Sun - 20 @ MP+30

This adds up to 65 miles so I may cut Wed & Sun a little shorter depending on how I feel that day.

Next week is going to be really hard as our kids have spring break and we are traveling a lot, I also have a roping competition this weekend and two days next weekend.

Wow...I'm busy!

Thanks again for all of the good suggestions!

Yeah ... I hear ya Joe ... no more opinions from me! Other than ...

Preston, if you jump from your current mileage to what you just outlined, be sure to let me know what visiting hours are at the hospital! You are much much closer to being ready than you realize, would hate to see you sabotage it with over-training

SIGNING OUT!!!

This is why I like a specific schedule. It's like overeating...my eyes are always bigger than my stomach.

How about this:

Mon - rest

Tues - 8 @ 9:00 pace

Wed - 13 @ MP

Thurs - rest

Fri - 5 Tempo, 3 @ 9:00 pace

Sat - 8 @ 9:00 pace

Sun - 16 @ MP+30

That's 52 miles

I averaged 48 miles over the last 7 weeks. Do you than this is more reasonable?

Don't quit talking to me :-(

This looks better - then after 2-3 weeks if you are feeling good add another 5 mile recovery run in there. That will take you close to 60 miles which should be good for this cycle. Or you break that 8 mile run on Saturday up and make it 5, then add 4-5 recovery miles on Thursday. You are adding extra mileage but it might actually be easier on your body. Just a thought. Oh, grass, crushed granite, packed dirt, and other soft surfaces are your friends for the slower miles. It will help your body recovery faster and absorb the extra miles.

Agreed, much better ... even though it is 53, not 52! :)

Couple minor tweaks:

* Keep Wed mileage same, but add 1.5 mile warmup & cooldown & do 10 @ MP

* Long runs are better every other week, so Week 2 you could add a 5 mile recovery run to Thursday & reduce Sunday to 13 miles & you would still be increasing mileage from 53 to 55.

* Week 3, keep the 5 mile recovery run & bump Sunday back to 16 or 17, & you are now at 58-59

* Keep Sat at 8, good to have miles on legs day before long run ... if you wanted to bump to 60 in Week 4, you could make Saturday 10 easy ... so you are getting good cumulative weekend mileage! Of course, Week 4 you are going to want to drop your Sunday long run down again ... so drop it to 13 & make Thursday 8 easy ... you still hit 60. :)

I would say that is pretty aggressive mileage ramping, but if you keep the Easy runs truly Easy, you should be fine ... just back off if the body tells you to! Hitting 60 would be great, but honestly, if you put together 6 weeks of 50-55 you will be as ready as you ever have been ... most imp't thing is stay injury free!

IJR, I think you are trying too hard.

The miles look good, but drop the MP and just run easy. Keep the weekly tempo run. And do the long run at easy pace; maybe do the last few miles around MP every other week.

JG, I trained with RLRF's predecessor, "FIRST to the Finish," several years ago. It got me to the start line and I finished without bonking. I think it's a good program for cross trainers and those who run low mileage. I can see how it was a good fit for Preston.

For most people, if their goal is to race their fastest marathon, I think high mileage (60+ per week) is the best training strategy. If that is Preston's goal, then maybe his next training cycle should lean a little more on quantity.

What concerns me (and all of you other "I Just Run" commenters) about Preston is he is keeping too much intensity from his RLRF training plan and increasing the mileage. And he is doing this after a failed marathon race. This is a recipe for injury or overtraining syndrome.

Carl, I agree with all your last comments 100% & my concern was the same. RLRF is great for people who cross train, but yes, it is geared to get you a BQ, not run your fastest marathon!