Wheeler Farm Loops

The last part in bold is classic. That complete lack of knowledge of what one ability means relative to another and the question "what distance is your marathon this weekend?" are my two favorite Muggle comments...

a 5K marathon is still a marathon, right? :-)

I just think its so funny is what is motivating him to finally give the marathon a go... he doesn't get the respect he deserves without running one... even though he can absolutely kick the butts of very, very good runners half his age in the 5K and 10K type distances.

muggle comments...hahaha. my mother always says: "what's your best marathon time again? 2:20?" bless her heart.

that's great that he's going for the marathon distance, but it's unfortunate that he feels he has something to prove, or that he won't be taken seriously until he jumps to the marathon. i have a much, much more difficult time with the 5k. yes, you are in pain for a shorter amount of time, but the pain is so much more *intense*. i've had more "i want to die" experiences in the 5k than in the marathon. those guys/gals at the top in the shorter distances do things that i will never be able to comprehend. just think of the olympic 10k this year. 53 seconds for the last 400m. what?! i can't even imagine how hard that must have been.

Jake I'm movin this question from my blog to take advantage of your frequent viewers.

Do you know what the FRB headcount is for Saturday's race?

You, me, Allie, Scott, ?

TOU's famous stalker pdf: http://topofutahmarathon.com/whohalf.pdf

I actually think training for the 10K is a lot harder than training for the marathon. You not only have to be willing to suffer a lot more, but you also need to train a lot smarter. You can get away with a lot of things in marathon training that would not lead to great (or equivalent) results in a 5K/10K. None of this "comfortably hard" nonsense in those shorter races where you really have to make it hurt BAD :-)

So I have a lot of respect for guys like Magill. It will be interesting to see how he does.

The last bolded comment is classic. I would most definitely agree that training specifically for 5k/10k is way more intimidating to me now than training for a marathon. It is interesting however how perception changes the longer you run and the more competitive you become with your running. I think a lot of people lack this understanding and just think the further you run the better you are.

Rachelle don't let Jon and the other ultra guys hear you say that... :)

I almost feel like I am "wimping out" by planning to run another marathon in December. I feel like I should get tougher and get serious about the 5K-Half range... but I just keep telling myself that will be my sole focus in 2013 and I'll leave 26.2 behind for a while. Easier said than done!

It all depends on the person - for a lot of us, running longer is easier and mentally we like it.

I agree that to me my 5K and 10K PRs were more painful than my marathon PR. Also, a dozen quarters on the track is harder to get into than a 20-miler workout. However, do you think the same can be said for Makau and his sub-2:04 vs his 5K and 10K races?

I don't know - those guys run REALLY hard workouts. I recently read a quote from Renato Canova where he said (and I'm paraphrasing) that Americans train for the marathon with an intensity "best suited for boy scouts"

Read some of the sessions that Bam has been outlining on his blog... those will make you want to move right back down to the 5K :-)

That's class. Thanks for posting that, Jake.

Magill's the business at 5k and 10k, it'll be very interesting to see how he fares at the marathon. Although he does a decent amount of weekly mileage, I think he's jumping across too quickly - probably to try and take advantage of all the age related stuff before nature takes its course.

I think he'd be better waiting an extra six months and preparing properly. Not to be negative - I'm a fan - I think he'll blow up big style: his fibres will only be partially tuned into what's required for the marathon and he'll go off too fast - I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.

(EDit - add on, based on your comment about 5k-half etc) I think that after CIM you should spend some time working on your 5k-half - to help you in the long run.

I agree on what will probably happen w/ Magill... 5:30 pace will feel easy and he'll likely go out too fast.

Everyone needs to hold me to the "no marathons next year" plan (at least through the summer) - plenty of track racing to be done and the 1/2 champs are back in Duluth next year, so I'll want to focus on that!

You guys are making me feel better about running my first ever marathon this fall. haha. If its easier than a 5k Im in....

Pretty sure I wont think a marathon will feel easier than a 5 or 10k. The pain will just last ALOT longer. However, running a all out 800m in college was a lot more painful than a half marathon I have to admit that one.

Those were great reads. I remember some pretty ugly 5K's in my younger years. Those tough experiences with the shorter distances psyched me out of the longer runs for a while. "If I hurt this bad in a silly 5K, what would a marathon feel like?"

There are certainly different kinds of pain when you increase the distance of your races. To be really good at any distance means you get to spend some time with "Teacher Pain."

I'd love to see Pete have a strong showing at Twin Cities, but I'm with Bam in projecting Pete will go out too fast early on. I still see him running a sub 2:40, but that'll be a disappointment to him.

All this chatter on a blog post from a guy who has never ran a Ragnar race. I thought that was the crown jewel of running :-)

I'm waiting for RAGNAR to be an olympic event in 2016 or 2020

That's only if they incorporate a keg stand between hand-offs...

An interesting post I saw on Letsrun this morning, regarding these fast old guys and the marathon... Kevin Castille, who beat me by a step in Duluth, is also running the master's champs at Twin Cities. Here's the post:

"I think of Pete as a strength/power runner; it'll be interesting to see how his first marathon experience goes. I suspect he will learn that there are some fundamental differences in training to race a marathon (which he indicates in the interview he probably won't do...and I never did, either.) I had a nice discussion this past Sunday evening with Kevin Castille, who is also more of a 5K-10K kinda guy, but is a floater, as running styles go. He's also had his frustrations in successfully negotiating a marathon, and will also be running the Twin Cities Marathon (also the USATF Masters Marathon Championships). In his first several attempts, he says he didn't really change his training much, and he says that he suffered in the latter stages of the marathon for it. This time, he's getting in more miles (up to about 130 mpw!), but is also learning how to properly train his body to take in fuel during his long runs. He says he's noticed a big difference in how he feels during these long runs and how much more quickly he's recovering from them, as well."

Good conversation going on here. I think there's clearly a huge difference between training for shorter distances and the marathon. Also, the pain is much different. I think individual preference depends on what kind of pain you can endure more easily.

In shorter races the pain is much more intense, but for a much shorter time. The marathon just slowly eats away at you and kind of lulls you gradually into pain. If you don't run out of fuel and hit the wall hard (like I do, which really hurts) then the pain is never nearly as intense as in the shorter races but it lasts much longer.

So the question is, what kind of pain do you prefer? Mentally, I (and Angieb too) can handle the shorter much more intense pain a lot better, which is why I excelled in the 800 and 1500 meters. I felt like I could put up with any type of pain for 4 minutes. Whereas people like Allie and Fritz likely prefer the not as intense but much longer marathon pain. And then I'm guessing Jake and Scott are more in the middle of the extremes (you two can handle both pains well; good place to be!)

Finally, I love the part where his neighbors tell him he could do a marathon if he trained harder. I get slower runners I know all the time giving me advice on how to train so I can finish a marathon. I'm like, look I can run 26.2 miles. But that's never been the question, the question was and still is can I race a marathon hard. Huge difference!

But, they don't get that. They run to finish and don't understand the race aspect.

I have to agree with Reily! After running a 5 hour marathon (my longest to date, but it was to help a dear friend!!) on Saturday I must say FINISHING a marathon is MUCH different than RACING a marathon. You can stop and chat and recover cardio and head off again. When you are racing a marathon it is SO much different. With all that said, I would take racing a marathon over racing a 5K or a 10K any day. I am cut of the cloth that I prefer to run 'comfortably hard' for 26 miles rather than killing myself for 20 minutes.

I'm in no class to effectively add much to this conversation...except my opinion. I guess I can feel Pete's pain about the distance and just wanting to get it over with. Especially with his neighbors ragging on him like that :) I hate to say it, but most people will add about 10 min onto their projected goal time in their first marathon. Your body just needs a few good marathons to understand the mileage. So, I'm interested to see how well he does, but will agree with the 2:40 prediction. It will be a disappointment to him, but he might just get the marathon bug and come back for more! If could run 3:40 fulls when I'm 50 I'd be happy :)

I think old Pedro will run a touch quicker than 2:30 but will be disappointed.

Why run in the National Masters Champs if your going to jog round in 2:30 to get a feel for the distance? I suspect he's going for sub 2:25, probably 2:22-2:23.

He mentioned having run 20 in 1:50; why go for 2:30? He's gonna go for it and he's put it out there to generate some chat, which will motivate him and raise his profile all the more (clever stuff).

Riley's post about the difference between running and racing a marathon is where it's at. Old Pedro could pootle round in 2:35 no problem. He could run 2:30 easy enough too. But I think he'll end up running a painful 2:28.

Oh yeah, he wouldn't even be running if he wasn't trying to break the age-group record.

To me - racing is racing - you gotta bring the focus and your "A" game regardless of the distance if you are going to run well. What I find more challenging about training for the 5K-15K distances is that you have to be mentally dialed in a lot more during your workouts. And sometimes you dread them. With the marathon - the longer tempos and long runs are just easier for me to START.

See for me Jake it's the opposite. I have no problem getting amped up for 400, 800, 1000 or even 1600 repeats. The pain is so short that I can hack it and don't dread it. But to get amped up for a 20-miler with 4-6 miles at tempo pace is hard for me; I dread that (although I'm dreading it less as I do it more often). Like I said I think it comes down to what type of pain you prefer.

There is a reason winning a marathon pays quite a bit more than winning a shorter race. Some of it is of course the hype of the distance, and some the fact that you cannot race it as often, so you have less competition because the competitors that would have been there in a 5 K are recovering from the last marathon they've run. Some of it is training. A potentially 13:30 5 K runner can run in the low 15:00 training recreationally. However, a potentially 2:12 marathoner will be lucky to break 2:40 or maybe even 2:50 off the same recreational training. But there is another element. You must have near perfect health. Every health problem is exponentially magnified over the second half of the race. Weak liver, weak heart, defective spine, maybe some weird hormonal problem - you can pass the lab tests, and you might not see much of a problem in shorter distances, but it will rear its ugly head in the marathon.

My thoughts on the diet. Imagine a drain pipe from your kitchen sink. For a while you can put stuff down and it keeps disappearing fast. Then as the pipe clogs up and it disappears slower and slower. Then one day it does not move and you have to call the plumber or do some very dirty work. So is your body. You put stuff in it that is garbage, for a while the natural disposal mechanisms work pretty well, especially if you are physically active. But after some time they wear out and your health and your performance alongside begins to suffer.

The above also applies to nourishing the spirit. It is a fundamental pattern.

Riley - haha that's why you are the only one of us who ran run 3:42 for the 1500m!!! Or anywhere CLOSE to that! Guys like you who can hammer out those hard intervals have my eternal admiration and respect. I want to get some of that back...

Jake - as much as we like to think about the value of being tough, it does not make a difference more than maybe 10 seconds a mile. Indeed, slowing down 10 seconds a mile for a well trained runner allows him to run the full marathon instead of just the half. That is in a race. As far as toughness in training, I think most competitive type A personality runners would err on the side of pushing too hard. So they actually make themselves slower by trying too hard.

I think to gain the speed in any distance, and particularly in a short one, you need to dig down and understand the physiology of it. Not necessarily on the molecular level, that is perhaps too much detail, like trying to disassemble a word processor to figure out how to make it do colors, but on a solid intuitive level where you know what you lack and how to attack it even though you may be clueless as to what the molecules are doing.

Adam and Rachelle, it's not that running further means you're better, it just means you get to do your favorite activity uninterrupted for a longer period! I mean, what can beat 24 hours of pure running?

Anyways, I twice set my 5k PR's solely on 100 mile race training with no speedwork shorter than 10 mile tempos... so granted, I'm sure I could do faster at 5k's, but speed races and ultras don't have to be opposites.

Jake, if you don't think marathons are painful enough versus a 5k, come feel the burn in your legs at mile 75... realizing you still have a marathon to go! :)

BTW, love the quotes above. Especially how he's ticked at his 6-hr neighbor.

Are there really no Logan-based FRB members doing TOU 1/2? That might be a first. I can't believe they have 2500 runners- I won it in 2004 or so and it only had 350-ish runners (and my time then wouldn't be top 10 now). I think it almost doubled every year after that till they capped it. Great race.

Never mind Magil - what about me? I've just read that food article and now I'm an orthorexic.

Goes off and eats ice cream. There, I'm not an orthorexic. Feels guilty about the ice cream. Sticks fingers down throat. Chucks-up. There, now I'm a bulimic.

Better not eat anything. Crikey, now I'm anorexic. In fact, my folks think I take diet pills because I've lost so much lard.

This is enough to drive me back to the drink. Now what do you call a person who drinks too much and looks a touch on the rotund side? Happy.

I can't even keep track of all the comments on this post anymore!

Several good thoughts there, Sasha... the one I would to re0iterate is about having an "intuitive feel" about the training - I think it was Bannister who said that the scientists are always a generation behind the athletes and coaches who have already "discovered" what works - they may not understand WHY is works on the smallest level, but they have, for the most part, figured it out.

Jon - despite your best efforts I'll stick to 100 miles spread out over 4 days, as opposed to all at once :-) I think your TOU 1/2 win in 2004 raised the bar for the next decade! It is a great race and I'm excited to run it again tomorrow.

Jon, I agree and I think that gets to what a number of people have pointed out about the difference between the 5K/Marathon. I think the reason why the majority of the people commenting here (though not all) prefer the marathon training. Because it is more of what we like. Then for you to add in the amazing scenery you get to run in, it is close to heaven on earth...

The reason I run marathons is because I am relatively no good at shorter distances, and even if I was, marathons pay more. Yes, I have always been way too slow to make ends meet as a professional runner, but nevertheless I have felt it important for reasons I cannot quite explain to approach the matter professionally and to make more money from running than I spend on it. I have obviously not make a fortune, but at least I have kept it cash-positive, which is better than a lot of businesses.