The Qwer Old Fella's Marathon Method

November 01, 2024

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Location:

Tralee,Ireland

Member Since:

Oct 01, 2011

Gender:

Male

Goal Type:

Other

Running Accomplishments:

I've never worn compression socks.

Short-Term Running Goals:

To do a race.

Long-Term Running Goals:

1. Break the world record for the marathon in the 50+ age group, when I'm 50 in 2015.

2. Never wear compression socks.

 

Personal:

Married with two girls (6 and 10).

The Qwer Old Fella's Marathon Method is a four year experiment.

The first year (2012) was about getting back into running, staying off the smokes and booze, while sticking to a healthy eating plan and shedding mountains of lard. All boxes ticked.

Year two (2013 - age: 48) Injured Jan through March. Build back up and work on my 5k speed. Goal 15:45.

Year three (2014) will be about doing my first marathon in the spring. (Just for the experience and on a tough course - maybe Tralee; goal time, 2:30ish.) Then begins the prep work for Berlin 2015

Year four (2015) is all about breaking the world record for the marathon in the 50+ age group - it's only 2:19 :).

The above might sound nuts; it is, but then I'm nuts. Please do not copy any of the training I do: if you do, you are likely to end up running like me - not a good idea.

The idea is to have a laugh along the way. If I fail, I don't know what I'll do - my whole belief system will crumble and I suspect that this little rock might just stop spinning for a couple of seconds. Jakers, I better not fail for all our sakes. That's some burden, even for SuperBam.

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Miles:This week: 0.00 Month: 0.00 Year: 0.00
Easy MilesMarathon Pace MilesThreshold MilesVO2 Max MilesTotal Distance
16.000.000.000.0016.00

10:00 a.m. 8 miles incl 2 miles hill climb at moderate effort. A bit of a non-workout. Too windy to get in any real quality. Feel like I should do some fartlek or something tonight, but I'll leave it and just do a steady run.

I stopped the hill climb at 2 miles and if I'm honest my mind was more on the subject of doubles and singles from Jake's blog, which was about the book 'Waterlogged', at least it was until I popped up.

Jason D raised an interesting point about conflicting views on when to introduce doubles. A lot of the 'main men' talk about doing doubles after you've hit 70-75mpw but I don't agree. I know the benefits of running longer etc but I think when you're building, doubles work much better. They don't stress the musculoskeletal system as much, which lessens the likelihood of injury and therefore increases the chances of improving fitness.

Take me as an example (this isn't me giving the big chat about how great I am - I'm all for taking the hand out of myself and I don't mind others ripping me either).

11 months back I was smoking 40 a-day and had been for 12 years, drinking 1-1.5 bottles of wine a night and had been for longer than I can remember, my diet was appalling, my cholesterol and blood pressure were high and my weight was whale-like. Now I'm a lean, mean running machine:).

I've managed to increase my weekly mileage to 100+ in 11 months through doing doubles and building every 3-4 weeks. Along the way, as the weight slipped off and the musculoskeletal system developed, I got faster. Now I haven't raced yet, so I don't know how quick I am, but I think I can go sub 17 for 5k and sub 35.30 for 10k. They're not great times, especially for somebody running 100+ mpw but from where I started, that's not bad. There are many contributing factors for this improvement, but I know that the key has been doubles and keeping the majority of my runs under an hour.

I will, soon, increase some of my runs to75 mins and 90 mins respectively, but only when I think that my musculoskeletal system is ready for it and, more importantly, when the kids are back at school - so I don't have to go running at 4:00 a.m.

Another point on the theme of improvement. Speed. I think too many people spend too much time plodding out miles and not getting stuck into the business end. Speed-work is where it's at. If you run 8 min miles, you can't run 5 min miles in races - unless you're Jake. Simple.

Now, interval sessions hurt like hell. 4x1 mile off 90 secs isn't as nice as say an easy 8. Yes, the easy 8 has a role (don't know how to put the thingymajig over the 'o'). But if you want to get faster, you need to have at least one weekly workout. Yep, you've got to get the base in first so that the musculoskeletal system can cope with the speed-work. But once you have a base, you have it; you don't need to keep going back and saying, 'Oh mister man, I'm building a base'.

Yes, keep building (we're always building), but keep at least one workout in there and do some alactic work. Think about it: if I want to run 2:20 for a marathon, I need to pretty much be able to run 10k in 30 mins. Will I do this running 15 miles at 8 min pace everyday? No. I've got to get out there and feel the pain, the gut churning pain of speed. I need to make 5:20 pace feel like it's 7 min pace. Anyway, I'm off for a shower and then I'm going to have a Bam-bar.

I'm back! 'Oh no,' I hear you scream. 'Will he ever shut up?'

The speed thing. I believe that most people have got it wrong when it comes to the marathon and that's why, more often than not, they don't hit their goals.

Most people go out there and bang out the miles and then do some tempo stuff and some intervals closer to race - to sharpen; don't start me on this sharpening malarkey. Wrong! Absolutely the wrong way to go about it, and even though I haven't even raced over 5k, I know this is the wrong method. Ok, you might have a decent(ish) time, but imagine what you could do if you were training properly...

Think about it. What is the marathon asking of you? To run hard for 26 miles. It's not asking you to run 10 miles at predicted marathon pace, it's not asking you to run 18 miles at pmp, it's demanding you run your stones* off for 26 miles. So how do you do it? How come I know more than the great coaches? Well, I'll tell you, but not until I'm good and ready:)

* Thanks Kam, for increasing the power of my vocabulary. 

6:00 p.m. 8 miles steady in some savage wind and rain. Right, I think I've managed to formulate my thoughts and ideas about training for the marathon. Tomorrow I'll post them and clarify some of the somewhat rant sounding things I've posted today - some of which, I already disagree with; can you imagine living in my bampot head?

Night Sleep Time: 0.00Nap Time: 0.00Total Sleep Time: 0.00Weight: 132.00
Comments
From Bret on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 07:22:00 from 64.128.133.66

Ok then Bamster - I'll bite... if "tempo stuff and intervals close to the race" and sharpening is malarkey for marathon racing - what doth thou advise for the marathon training? (virtual training partners want to know).

By the way, I am with you on the doubles 100%.

From Jake K on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:03:02 from 155.100.226.54

Lots of great thoughts here...

The older Lydiard style method (base, sharpen, etc) obviously works to a point. The "modern" marathoner (the 2:03-2:05 guys) obviously have to change the game a bit and approach it a different way to get to that level. They are basically racing at close to threshold pace.

For someone like me, planning to run 2 marathons in the fall - I need to approach the first one the "old fashioned" way - almost more from a mental aspect than physical - there's only so many times you can get yourself psyched up to go out and hammer it hard. But as I approach CIM, I will probably take the approach of running more at race pace or faster and building up how far I can go at that pace.

From Kam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:23:06 from 68.66.163.179

"I've got to get out there and feel the pain, the gut churning pain of speed."

I used to have interval Tuesday and tempo Thursday. Lately I've just been banging out lots of 8 minute miles. I better re-order my training.

From Bam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:26:48 from 89.204.237.186

Bret - patience Grasshopper. You will smash your PR. What you do after NY is more of a concern... Fear not, I will reveal all - I'm trying to get it out of my head into a coherent methodology.

Jake, I think you're bang on about Lydiard and Canova, but I think that Canova's missing some crucial points (Lydiard, although ground-breaking etc is a touch cumbersome and basic: he's ok as a starting point.)

Your approach to the two marathons is brilliant and thought provoking. I like how you're going at it and I know you'll run well. I also think that what you're doing is laying a monster of a foundation over a two year period and dropping in some quicker stuff to get you to where you need to be, and that ultimately, you'll fine tune everything and all will pay-off.

I looked at the CIM site. Is the course legit? I mean, is it considered aided or whatever the term is?

From Jake K on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:31:00 from 155.100.226.54

The course is legit - its obviously fast - point to point net downhill of like 200 or so feet, but its legal for Olympic Trials qualifying. The tricky thing w/ a course like that is the direction of the wind. In terms of logistics, though, its fantastic - 90 minute flight, and good time of the year. Competition is always top-notch, too. About 20-30 folks (mostly women) qualified for the trials there last year.

From Jake K on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:32:38 from 155.100.226.54

Today's quote of the day on Letsrun goes along well with your "gotta feel the pain" thoughts...

"... In running, there's just not really luck. It's about putting yourself in this place where you're willing to push in a way that's not normal."

From Bam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:47:36 from 89.204.237.186

I haven't been over to LetsRun, yet. But I'll be feeling the pain if I don't make the wife's dinner.

Oops, the reason I asked about CIM was that I might have a go myself, when the time's right.

From Jake K on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:49:43 from 155.100.226.54

Andrea and I figure that when the time comes to try and qualify for the trials again, CIM and Chicago are the two obvious places to go. In the meantime, it would be good to get on those course before an OTQ attempt... being familiar w/ the course goes a long way.

From Rob on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:03:28 from 206.71.84.68

I'm going to attempt to chime in here, I too am a fat guy in a skinny guys body, I totally agree with the doubles thing if it works with your schedule. I have a "life" schedule that seldom accommodates me running twice a day. As far as speed work goes, I guess it depends on your goals, if you're an OTQ hopeful or even a local races podium guy I think it's essential, if you're in the other 99.9% that just wants to PR I'm not so sure, I once thought I was a .01% guy but have since been humbled.

I can trace back every injury I've had to either 800's or 1600 intervals, and in every case it pretty much screwed up the goal marathon I was training for at the time. When you get old, like me, I think the body just can't handle the extra strain of running distance at quicker than tempo pace. I have pretty much written off intervals and am going to just focus on getting comfortable at marathon pace.

From Bam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:25:41 from 89.204.237.186

Rob, I agree with you. We've all got different goals and experiences that contribute towards our running goals.

I think what I was trying to do was to get some of my thoughts about 'my training' out of my head and down. I'll put it together properly in the next day or two and post it.

I think if you (universal pronoun) are banging out 80+mpw and looking at ripping it up, then how you (UP) attack your training becomes more of a priority in your (UP) daily life. Nowt wrong with running at mp; nowt at all.

From Bam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 13:32:40 from 89.204.237.186

Bret - when I was out tonight I thought about how flippant I must have sounded after saying something quite controversial - sorry; I'll clarify what I meant tomorrow. But for now, I think you'll fly following the Lydiard method.

Kam - I don't think speed is the panacea to cracking the myriad problems of the marathon. It's an important ingredient, which I believe is misplaced in and added in the wrong doseage in most cases. Again, I'll clarify this point tomorrow.

Rob - I get your point and I too have been stopped in my tracks by injuries (many years back) that I can attribute to speed-work. My post was a bit tactless and was more like me thinking aloud without having thought things over properly. But I think I have it sussed now and will articulate my ideas with more clarity over the next few days.

From Rob on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 13:46:20 from 198.228.217.161

I didn't think your post was controversial, I just figured it was mis-translated from Irish to American.

From Rob Murphy on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 13:51:18 from 24.10.249.165

When I started reading this post and the comments I fully intended to comment myself.

Now I'm just tired so I'm going to take a nap.

From Jake K on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 13:53:54 from 155.100.226.54

"thinking aloud without having thought things over properly" gets me in trouble about 8 days out of every week :-)

We'll eventually need cliff-notes versions of some of these discussions

From Bam on Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 14:21:32 from 89.204.237.186

Jake, I've just been over to LetsRun and read the Dobson article - very good. I loved the bit where he goes on about it being wrong to have a conversation with yourself during a race.

Rob - I'm glad it was lost in translation:)

Mr Murphy - I'll keep it concise tomorrow. By the way, I thought your post about the teacher who inspired you to take up running was moving.

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