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Author Topic: Goose Egg Image contest  (Read 40094 times)
Josse
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« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 03:31:03 pm »

Again I agree with Paul and everyone else.  I personally don't need a tool like this.  I have a hard time even taking off scheduled days.  And if I occationally want an extra day off during the month I don't want a negitive mark by it,  I think it is good to do this if the body is screaming at you to rest.  I really think this will have a negitve effect.  But just my opinion (and alot of others:))  I would listen to the norm, even if this idea excites you, which I know it does Wink
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Sasha Pachev
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« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 03:33:19 pm »

Jon:

All Cody needs to do to beat you in a marathon is have a certain proportion of goose eggs that is smaller than yours. And a goose egger usually dies towards the end, so a likely scenario is that he will be passing you at 23. Of course, he might just take off from the start and you never see him if the goose egg discrepancy becomes severe.

Born-again date will be a field in the database, and there will be a link that you click to be born again. Once you are born again, your old goose eggs disappear. For the Lost Sheep, I think we need to pelt them with Goose Eggs the first week of not posting, but then we do not want their recent entries to be all goose eggs, we want to be able to find their last real entry. Maybe two views - with Goose Eggs and without, default with Goose Eggs, but if you are visiting a Lost Sheep from the Lost Sheep link then the default is without. Maybe a picture of a lost sheep on the blogs that are in that status  (not updated for a month) as well.

Optional Goose Egging - that is a thought. However, it might defeat the purpose of the feature. We do not offer optional blogging, at least we greatly discourage it. Maybe this - if you are using a template that has numeric fields, you get Goose Egging, if this is just an announcement blog, no goose eggs. So if you care enough to track your mileage, then you should also be willing to receive a Goose Egg when you skip, if you do not like Goose Eggs and just want to socialize, then do not use the template that tracks the mileage.
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Sasha Pachev
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« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 03:35:24 pm »

Josse:

All you need to do when taking a planned day off is mark that day as such. Then you get no goose egg. Goose egg is when you know you should have run but did not because of laziness or disorganization.
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adam
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« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 04:29:38 pm »

I think if my mom were reading all this, she ask, "how come you don't give everyone golden eggs on the days they do run, so there's positive encouragement; and instead of totalling up people's goose eggs, you could total up everyone's golden eggs. Then people would strive to get golden eggs".

my mom is nice.
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Josse
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« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 04:50:17 pm »

Adam that is a great idea.  I like your mom.
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Dallen
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 05:28:07 pm »

Many elite/Olympic class runners run 7 days per week.  I know even Paul would often take only 1 day off every 21 days last summer.  Therefore, why should we negatively judge people if they don't meet the too-common FRB criteria of "run 6 days per week"?  Why not tell everyone to run 7 days per week?  [This is rhetorical, don't answer it, Sasha].

By the same thinking, running 4 or 5 days per week rather than 6 or 7 may satisfy the goals of many runners.  Just like I don't want to be criticized for running 6 days per week by a 7-day-a-week guy, I don't think a 4-day-a-week guy wants to be criticized by me.  At the most, I could point out to him that running 6 days a week could help him improve.  But if he chooses not to run that often, I will still positively support him rather than use guilt to try to make him run my "6-days-a-week" preconceived plan.

Going to have to agree with this.

How about we just mark a box if we want to put a goose egg in our daily entry.
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Dustin Ence
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 07:05:19 pm »

I don't agree at all with the goose egg idea.  I feel it is too much negative reinforcement, if I haven't been running I would rather someone ask why and then I can explain well "I'm lazy or I've been injured" and then hopefully people would help motivate to either get better or start training again.  I think those that already follow certain people's blog's can already tell when someone is training and when they are not.  I mean a 0 is a goose egg, am I not correct?  Why then would we need a special icon, to track this and frustrate people further?  I really think you will start driving more people away from the blog, if you start highlighting the negative things or brining to attention the things we do wrong as runners with our training.  I believe most people already feel some guilt when they miss a run, or feel like they could have gone farther or faster, why then do we need to add more to that person's frustration?
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Marcie J.
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 09:09:44 pm »

I agree the majority, I think the goose egg is bad idea!
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Josse
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 09:51:47 pm »

If you can just mark a box saying you are going to take a "planned day off".  I think the majority would mark it even if they didn't plan on taking the day off just so they don't get slack form Sasha.  What is the point?  I agree people can be lazy and not do what they set out to do, but a goose egg is not going to change that.  The people that are out there running 6-7 days a week are disaplined enough to not need this and all the others don't want to be reminded every time they take an extra day off.  Sasha this is America land of the lazy Wink Embarrassed Shocked  I think what we are doing now is working great.  Positive reinforcement with comments.  I notice when people start running more and coment on what a great job they are doing and tell them to keep it up.  People like this more and continue to strive to do better because they know someone is watching. 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 09:56:40 pm by Josse » Logged
Bonnie
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« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2008, 05:36:12 am »

For what it is worth I think that the goose egg is a horrible idea.  As someone who is not very fast, but has never taken a day off because of laziness (yet), I think that not everyone will respond to this type of negative reinforcement.  Most runners are competative by nature (hence why we run) and there are already plenty of places to let this shine on the blog (mileage board for instance) - we don't really need "goose eggs" as yet another type of inspiration to run.

I really don't know many runners who take time off when they are supposed to, let alone when they don't need to ... seems a little "big brotheresque" to me.
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Adam R Wende
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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2008, 06:45:37 am »

I agree with most of you and my first statement hopefully made that clear. Along this same tract of positive reinforcement was my suggestion in the other discussion and poll about the mileage board. I wanted a running only board but I also suggested increasing the modes of positive/competitive reinforcement. In other words if something should be changed increase the ways to get positive reinforcement. We could do this by increasing the options for ranking boards (i.e. most miles RUN, most hours exercising, most days in a row, most hours of sleep, etc.). This option would give more people a chance to excel in a given area. Another thing that I would like to see and I may post this in the future wish list is directed mileage boards. It would be nice to have a selection criteria for the board you look at. There are people that can't and/or shouldn't run 120 mile weeks, for that matter there are people that probably shouldn't run 60 mile weeks. If we had a way of choosing what mileage range we are targeting and comparing weekly mileage versus those with like minded goals that would be cool. Sasha, I have no idea how the programming is done but while you are setting up the filter for PR goals could we also have weekly mileage range goals and use this information for a filter to populate different mileage boards (i.e. an everyone board but then maybe 5 or so seperate boards, <20, 30-50, 50-70, 70-90, 90+). Doing it this way you can have a tally counter of how frequently each person hits their target range, goes below it, or goes above it. Because when all is said and done I really only care how much I'm running compared to Jon Wink and a handfull of others shooting for that sub-2:30   Tongue...
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2008, 07:13:09 am »

Adam, I like your mom, too.

I can just imagine a new person joining the blog- say someone who is just starting running for the first time ever, out of shape and a bit shy about the whole thing.  Maybe mid-30's, 3 kids, and a busy schedule.  Not even sure how far a 5k is, but her friend signed her up for one in 3 months and said she should try to break 35 minutes.  Somewhat hesitantly, she blogs her first 3 days but then has a busy day and misses the next day.  But she doesn't feel too bad because she still ran more in the past 3 days than in the past 13 years combined.  Much to her horror/surprise, the next day she notices a huge goose egg on her blog for all too see.  Very embarrased and a bit confused, she quits blogging and we never hear from her again.  We don't even know if she is still running.

Goose eggs wouldn't cause many of us to quit the blog, but I guarantee this scenario will occur.
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Ian Watson
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« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2008, 07:29:51 am »

I have to say that I think this is a bad idea. I run daily most of the time, with the occasional holiday break but maybe once or twice a year I will have a day where I cannot face going out of the door. It is not planned or sickness and I wouldn't mark it down as such, but I do need that mental break from the daily grind. I will feel guilty enough skipping running that day and the last thing I would want to see is a goose egg for this.
I think some sort of version of Adam's golden egg idea has more merit. To encourage consistency you could award a bronze egg for 20 training sessions a month, silver - 25, gold - 30 as an example. Cross training sessions can be included to give credit to the injured blog members that are working hard trying to maintain their fitness.
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Paul Petersen
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« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 07:40:15 am »

Adam, I like your mom, too.

I can just imagine a new person joining the blog- say someone who is just starting running for the first time ever, out of shape and a bit shy about the whole thing.  Maybe mid-30's, 3 kids, and a busy schedule.  Not even sure how far a 5k is, but her friend signed her up for one in 3 months and said she should try to break 35 minutes.  Somewhat hesitantly, she blogs her first 3 days but then has a busy day and misses the next day.  But she doesn't feel too bad because she still ran more in the past 3 days than in the past 13 years combined.  Much to her horror/surprise, the next day she notices a huge goose egg on her blog for all too see.  Very embarrased and a bit confused, she quits blogging and we never hear from her again.  We don't even know if she is still running.

Goose eggs wouldn't cause many of us to quit the blog, but I guarantee this scenario will occur.


...And these are the people that tend to benefit the most from the blog.

Negative reinforcement just doesn't work. Everyone who smokes knows it's stupid, but they choose to smoke anyway, despite the huge labels on the packages and scare campaigns on TV. And the death penalty does not always deter crime. And when you train a dog by beating him, all you get is a dog that cowers and then snaps at you. You train a dog by giving him treats (not trying to say that we're all dogs...)

To change a person, you need to change the heart, and a .png image of a goose egg will barely skim the surface, or will potentially harden the heart. To get a person to go from 3 days/week running to 6-7 days/week running it would be more effective to:

1. Befriend them
2. Comment frequently, thoughtfully, and gently
3. Hopefully see them in person, share a meal with them, and encourage them
4. Come up with other incentives that use positive reinforcement. Golden egg is a good idea. A way to track number of workouts would be good (we need a field for doubles - AM and PM sessions). Or time spent training would be good. (even when injured I often spend two hours/day on training and rehab...even though none of it shows up on the mileage board). The honor board is a nice idea.

Personally, I know that I have influenced the training of several people on the blog (whom I now live through vicariously, thanks), and managed to do it without humiliation tactics or other negative reinforcement.

I do understand the concept of your idea, and understand your major points and objectives (and agree with many of them), but I think all of your goals can be accomplished without a little goose-egg graphic. For what it's worth, this thread has generated two pages of discussion so far. To date, 11 different people have voiced opposition ranging from "mild disagreement" to "horrible idea". Most of these people are long-time bloggers with some race/speed credentials has well. Zero people have voiced support. Zero people have stepped forward to participate in the contest.

The fact that so many people don't like the idea is a good thing. It means that people really care about this blog. We've invested a lot of time and care into it, and have traded a lot of advice. We would hate to see it turn a direction like this.

Obviously the blog is not a democracy, but we hope that our benign leader will listen to counsel. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 07:42:11 am by Paul Petersen » Logged
Adam R Wende
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« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2008, 07:45:48 am »

Paul, As always your wisdom is only matched by your running accomplishments. You rightly sit at the top of the top runners list...
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