Fast Running Blog

I need a nice compact image of a goose egg that can be used on the blog. Being artistically challenged I decided to announce a contest for the best goose egg image, you can either find a free one on the net or draw one yourself. If you have not guessed already what it is for, this if for a new blog feature. It will appear on all of the blog entries later than your first and earlier than the current date that have not been specifically flagged as a planned day of rest. Feel free to put some creative text on it or make an animation.

Do we choose to put this on or is it automatic?  How do we "flag a planned day of rest?"

what about time off for unexpected injury? that's not necessarily a pre-planned rest day as well...

I'm curious that you'll be so strict with people missing days but you won't be strict about what mileage people count. One way around the goose egg is to just count the distance I walk from my car everyday...  :P

Great...negative reinforcement. That's how to get people to do stuff.  ::)

Not everyone joins the blog to run every day. Another way around the goose egg is just to quit blogging.

I have to agree Sasha thit  idea is a huge turn off!  Quite discouraging for most.  I would highly recommend not doing this.

Jon:

There will be a check-box that will say - day off due to injury/planned day of rest. Feel free to suggested a better wording. An runner will check it if the cause of the zero miles for the day is legitimate in his opinion.  It is not there yet.

Adam:

Low mileage is more often than not a consequence of skipping planned workouts for reasons of laziness or poor planning. That is why the blog has been so amazingly effective in helping people shave a good chunk of their PR. True, for some it has helped with better training as in not speeding on their easy runs, not overdoing on speed work, etc. But more often than not it is do your best training 6 days a week instead of 4, and do it throughout the year vs just when the roads are dry.

Also, the mileage alone is not as good of a predictor of what is going to happen with your endurance as the mileage + how many runs you do it in.

Regarding how it will affect the popularity of the blog. Those who will not mind the feature on average will be beating those who do. The ones getting beat will eventually be asking why.

I want the blog to produce fast runners. There is a reason we call it Fast Running Blog vs Finish a Marathon Blog or Average Runner Blog. We help the ones who could barely finish a marathon run a BQ, those who were running BQ run OTQ, those who run OTQ run OQ(not yet, but we hope), we help the average become exceptional. This will not happen unless they get out of their comfort zone. The value of the blog is in providing a framework that encourages the runner to leave the comfort zone of the  less disciplined training.  Discipline is not a very popular world in today's culture, and the statistical distribution of the results of any marathon speaks volumes about it. We could be popular by trying to blend with the average runner's comfort zone, but I find little satisfaction in it. It produces no growth. There is a better way, harder, but better.

Sasha, I have to agree with everyone else.  It is understandable that YOU want to push yourself.  Great do it.  And those that really want to will also push themselves.  But some people just run for fun, weight, or a another reason than hitting some sweat marathon time.  Let them do it and do it without the negative stigma of the goose egg being attached.

I have enough of a rebel in me that I would actually display my goose eggs with pride!  ;)

I don't believe that your plans for world domination and labeling people as losers via goose-eggs can co-exist. Very few people actually want to the run fast. Hopefully the ones that do will find their way to this site. If you want to make this site exclusive, challenging, and not bend to the norms of the world, that's cool, but you will never make a living off of it. If you actually want to get more ad revenue (or sponsor revenue), you'll need to not isolate the other 99% of the running community.

Even as a faster runner (when not crippled), I would take umbrage to a goose-egg next to my name. I don't need big brother watching over me and scolding me when I don't or can't run.

Many elite/Olympic class runners run 7 days per week.  I know even Paul would often take only 1 day off every 21 days last summer.  Therefore, why should we negatively judge people if they don't meet the too-common FRB criteria of "run 6 days per week"?  Why not tell everyone to run 7 days per week?  [This is rhetorical, don't answer it, Sasha].

By the same thinking, running 4 or 5 days per week rather than 6 or 7 may satisfy the goals of many runners.  Just like I don't want to be criticized for running 6 days per week by a 7-day-a-week guy, I don't think a 4-day-a-week guy wants to be criticized by me.  At the most, I could point out to him that running 6 days a week could help him improve.  But if he chooses not to run that often, I will still positively support him rather than use guilt to try to make him run my "6-days-a-week" preconceived plan.

If you want to run 4 days a week, mark the days you do not run as the planned days of rest/non-aerobic training/no goose egg please, I had a good reason not to run in my own honest opinion. What's the problem?
Goose eggs next to an entry when in your own opinion you chose not to run when you believe you should have is not any more of a big brother than having a blog at all. They just make it easier for you and others to see the truth about your training.  You are given a tool to honestly account for what you do. This is an important concept regardless of what your goals are, if you want win the Olympics or if you just want to finish a 5 K.

Would the egg appear as a graphic in the text area of the days (that otherwise do not appear)?

I would still display my eggs with pride!

Jon:

I am thinking of displaying the graphic in the calendar when you log in and on the blog as well for all qualifying days after the latest of the date the feature has been implemented and the day somebody joined the blog. Maybe even add a born-again date for the Lost Sheep that come back. Then we do not display the goose eggs before the born-again date. Maybe a pop-up balloon on mouse over that will have the instructions on how to get rid of it. We will give Cody a special shirt to wear when he passed you at mile 23 that will have a picture of a goose egg with you sitting on it :-)

The nice thing about goose eggs is that when somebody joins the blog and does not post any workouts, you would still be able to comment.

We might even have a goose egg board which could display people with the most and the least goose engs.

When did Cody pass me at mile 23?  I don't ever recall that occuring.  In fact, I don't think he has ever passed me in a race!

Least goose eggs board- good idea.  Most goose eggs?  Not sure it is a good idea.  Like Paul said, it may be too much negative reinforcement.  The whole goose egg idea might work better if people can opt-in, kind of like the sleep tracker.  I would have it goose egg me, but it would be good for anyone who wants to not have them to opt out.

Also, how would you determine when someone has become a lost sheep vs. born-again date?  Would they accrue goose eggs for a month and then stop?  Would you retroactively erase eggs once they come back?

Again I agree with Paul and everyone else.  I personally don't need a tool like this.  I have a hard time even taking off scheduled days.  And if I occationally want an extra day off during the month I don't want a negitive mark by it,  I think it is good to do this if the body is screaming at you to rest.  I really think this will have a negitve effect.  But just my opinion (and alot of others:))  I would listen to the norm, even if this idea excites you, which I know it does ;)

Jon:

All Cody needs to do to beat you in a marathon is have a certain proportion of goose eggs that is smaller than yours. And a goose egger usually dies towards the end, so a likely scenario is that he will be passing you at 23. Of course, he might just take off from the start and you never see him if the goose egg discrepancy becomes severe.

Born-again date will be a field in the database, and there will be a link that you click to be born again. Once you are born again, your old goose eggs disappear. For the Lost Sheep, I think we need to pelt them with Goose Eggs the first week of not posting, but then we do not want their recent entries to be all goose eggs, we want to be able to find their last real entry. Maybe two views - with Goose Eggs and without, default with Goose Eggs, but if you are visiting a Lost Sheep from the Lost Sheep link then the default is without. Maybe a picture of a lost sheep on the blogs that are in that status  (not updated for a month) as well.

Optional Goose Egging - that is a thought. However, it might defeat the purpose of the feature. We do not offer optional blogging, at least we greatly discourage it. Maybe this - if you are using a template that has numeric fields, you get Goose Egging, if this is just an announcement blog, no goose eggs. So if you care enough to track your mileage, then you should also be willing to receive a Goose Egg when you skip, if you do not like Goose Eggs and just want to socialize, then do not use the template that tracks the mileage.

Josse:

All you need to do when taking a planned day off is mark that day as such. Then you get no goose egg. Goose egg is when you know you should have run but did not because of laziness or disorganization.

I think if my mom were reading all this, she ask, "how come you don't give everyone golden eggs on the days they do run, so there's positive encouragement; and instead of totalling up people's goose eggs, you could total up everyone's golden eggs. Then people would strive to get golden eggs".

my mom is nice.

Adam that is a great idea.  I like your mom.

Going to have to agree with this.

How about we just mark a box if we want to put a goose egg in our daily entry.

I don't agree at all with the goose egg idea.  I feel it is too much negative reinforcement, if I haven't been running I would rather someone ask why and then I can explain well "I'm lazy or I've been injured" and then hopefully people would help motivate to either get better or start training again.  I think those that already follow certain people's blog's can already tell when someone is training and when they are not.  I mean a 0 is a goose egg, am I not correct?  Why then would we need a special icon, to track this and frustrate people further?  I really think you will start driving more people away from the blog, if you start highlighting the negative things or brining to attention the things we do wrong as runners with our training.  I believe most people already feel some guilt when they miss a run, or feel like they could have gone farther or faster, why then do we need to add more to that person's frustration?

I agree the majority, I think the goose egg is bad idea!

If you can just mark a box saying you are going to take a "planned day off".  I think the majority would mark it even if they didn't plan on taking the day off just so they don't get slack form Sasha.  What is the point?  I agree people can be lazy and not do what they set out to do, but a goose egg is not going to change that.  The people that are out there running 6-7 days a week are disaplined enough to not need this and all the others don't want to be reminded every time they take an extra day off.  Sasha this is America land of the lazy ;) :-[ :o  I think what we are doing now is working great.  Positive reinforcement with comments.  I notice when people start running more and coment on what a great job they are doing and tell them to keep it up.  People like this more and continue to strive to do better because they know someone is watching. 

For what it is worth I think that the goose egg is a horrible idea.  As someone who is not very fast, but has never taken a day off because of laziness (yet), I think that not everyone will respond to this type of negative reinforcement.  Most runners are competative by nature (hence why we run) and there are already plenty of places to let this shine on the blog (mileage board for instance) - we don't really need "goose eggs" as yet another type of inspiration to run.

I really don't know many runners who take time off when they are supposed to, let alone when they don't need to ... seems a little "big brotheresque" to me.

I agree with most of you and my first statement hopefully made that clear. Along this same tract of positive reinforcement was my suggestion in the other discussion and poll about the mileage board. I wanted a running only board but I also suggested increasing the modes of positive/competitive reinforcement. In other words if something should be changed increase the ways to get positive reinforcement. We could do this by increasing the options for ranking boards (i.e. most miles RUN, most hours exercising, most days in a row, most hours of sleep, etc.). This option would give more people a chance to excel in a given area. Another thing that I would like to see and I may post this in the future wish list is directed mileage boards. It would be nice to have a selection criteria for the board you look at. There are people that can't and/or shouldn't run 120 mile weeks, for that matter there are people that probably shouldn't run 60 mile weeks. If we had a way of choosing what mileage range we are targeting and comparing weekly mileage versus those with like minded goals that would be cool. Sasha, I have no idea how the programming is done but while you are setting up the filter for PR goals could we also have weekly mileage range goals and use this information for a filter to populate different mileage boards (i.e. an everyone board but then maybe 5 or so seperate boards, <20, 30-50, 50-70, 70-90, 90+). Doing it this way you can have a tally counter of how frequently each person hits their target range, goes below it, or goes above it. Because when all is said and done I really only care how much I'm running compared to Jon ;) and a handfull of others shooting for that sub-2:30   :P...

Adam, I like your mom, too.

I can just imagine a new person joining the blog- say someone who is just starting running for the first time ever, out of shape and a bit shy about the whole thing.  Maybe mid-30's, 3 kids, and a busy schedule.  Not even sure how far a 5k is, but her friend signed her up for one in 3 months and said she should try to break 35 minutes.  Somewhat hesitantly, she blogs her first 3 days but then has a busy day and misses the next day.  But she doesn't feel too bad because she still ran more in the past 3 days than in the past 13 years combined.  Much to her horror/surprise, the next day she notices a huge goose egg on her blog for all too see.  Very embarrased and a bit confused, she quits blogging and we never hear from her again.  We don't even know if she is still running.

Goose eggs wouldn't cause many of us to quit the blog, but I guarantee this scenario will occur.

I have to say that I think this is a bad idea. I run daily most of the time, with the occasional holiday break but maybe once or twice a year I will have a day where I cannot face going out of the door. It is not planned or sickness and I wouldn't mark it down as such, but I do need that mental break from the daily grind. I will feel guilty enough skipping running that day and the last thing I would want to see is a goose egg for this.
I think some sort of version of Adam's golden egg idea has more merit. To encourage consistency you could award a bronze egg for 20 training sessions a month, silver - 25, gold - 30 as an example. Cross training sessions can be included to give credit to the injured blog members that are working hard trying to maintain their fitness.

...And these are the people that tend to benefit the most from the blog.

Negative reinforcement just doesn't work. Everyone who smokes knows it's stupid, but they choose to smoke anyway, despite the huge labels on the packages and scare campaigns on TV. And the death penalty does not always deter crime. And when you train a dog by beating him, all you get is a dog that cowers and then snaps at you. You train a dog by giving him treats (not trying to say that we're all dogs...)

To change a person, you need to change the heart, and a .png image of a goose egg will barely skim the surface, or will potentially harden the heart. To get a person to go from 3 days/week running to 6-7 days/week running it would be more effective to:

1. Befriend them
2. Comment frequently, thoughtfully, and gently
3. Hopefully see them in person, share a meal with them, and encourage them
4. Come up with other incentives that use positive reinforcement. Golden egg is a good idea. A way to track number of workouts would be good (we need a field for doubles - AM and PM sessions). Or time spent training would be good. (even when injured I often spend two hours/day on training and rehab...even though none of it shows up on the mileage board). The honor board is a nice idea.

Personally, I know that I have influenced the training of several people on the blog (whom I now live through vicariously, thanks), and managed to do it without humiliation tactics or other negative reinforcement.

I do understand the concept of your idea, and understand your major points and objectives (and agree with many of them), but I think all of your goals can be accomplished without a little goose-egg graphic. For what it's worth, this thread has generated two pages of discussion so far. To date, 11 different people have voiced opposition ranging from "mild disagreement" to "horrible idea". Most of these people are long-time bloggers with some race/speed credentials has well. Zero people have voiced support. Zero people have stepped forward to participate in the contest.

The fact that so many people don't like the idea is a good thing. It means that people really care about this blog. We've invested a lot of time and care into it, and have traded a lot of advice. We would hate to see it turn a direction like this.

Obviously the blog is not a democracy, but we hope that our benign leader will listen to counsel. 

Paul, As always your wisdom is only matched by your running accomplishments. You rightly sit at the top of the top runners list...

That's what the blog is all about - getting knowledge from people like Paul, inspiration from people like Logan, and a love of running that hundreds of you, fast or just trying, display everyday.  Thanks everyone... that's why I blog.

I thought you did it for ZZ top and cheeseburgers?  :D

I guess I'll add my vote - a definite no for the goose egg.  I think there is room on the blog for constructive criticism, but it should be individualized based off a relationship that has already been built.  A one size fits all automated negative feedback mechanism is more offensive than a friend commenting on your blog, "Did you get out today?"

I'm the slow runner, the person just building up miles, the person starting to do 6 days a week.  I want to improve, I want to finish before other races do, I want to be faster.  I like the positive eggs.  Getting a gold egg only if I do the 6 days a week, but if I missed one in a month, then a silver egg would be okay, but not great and then I know I need to stay on top of it the next month to get my golden egg. 

Well, sounds like the majority vote is that a real goose egg at the end of a marathon is better than a token goose egg next to their public image when they choose not train. Odd choice, but I guess less work for me on the programming end of things.

I have to say, this discussion is fascinating. At the risk of being in overwhelming minority, I will say that I would probably benefit from the goose egg. I can see what Sasha is trying to accomplish and I can also see why people object to this particular method. I know I have a tendency to get lazy, skip days, lose focus, etc., etc. I would welcome an extra accountability that comes with getting a goose egg image on my missed days. I would want to avoid it and take is as a challenge to see who wins every day - me or the egg. I like positive reinforcement, don't get me wrong, but I would get more kick in the butt from the egg, than from all the nice encouraging comments on my blog, or from getting a golden egg at the end of the month (that sounds so much like kids getting a sticker for done homework).

I wonder if there are some fundamental cultural differences at play here. Sasha and I grew up in the same culture, where negative reinforcement was quite strong, and where parents, teachers, coaches, etc. did not sugar coat things like they are in US (and many other countries). Saying things bluntly, even shaming, was quite common, we adjusted to it, and it was quite effective. I'm not saying this is the best method, but it works for me, at least in this case. I agree, though, that when majority of bloggers are from US, the egg idea is not going to be popular. But this difference is very interesting to me.

Maria - that's what I thought. Russians use what Americans call "negative reenforcement" a lot. Some of it is too negative. But a lot is just a friendly jibe and telling you how it is in a helpful way and you here it and laugh at your own laziness or ineptitude along with the person who gave you the feedback. Americans are used to being told "good job" even when the job was no good, and in all honesty you did not try that hard. When I finish a bad marathon, I do not what to hear "good job", I want to hear "what happened, why so slow?" Even a little joke, "did you stop for lunch?" Then when I run well, and somebody nods and grunt, "hmm... that is respectable", that becomes a compliment of a very high value much higher than the standard American "outstanding" or "awesome", because I know the giver was not just trying to be polite, he told me the truth, and the truth was good.

I am split- I think the goose egg idea in general would be bad.  But personally, I am a bit like Maria and may benefit a bit.  Hard to say.

I can't disagree that Americans in general have become used to avoiding negative reinforcement, almost at all costs.  And it may be beneficial at times, such as a parent telling their child that they are disappointed in them getting in a fight or failing a test when they should have studied and passed (i.e. when they choose poorly, not when they did their best but still came up short).  But in general, negative reinforcement should be used sparingly (and usually only when there is a well-established and strong relationship) and positive reinforcement can be used liberally.  Like you said, Sasha, positive reinforcement means a lot more when it is deserved and honest, but it is better to err on the side of positive than negative in my opinion.  If negative is needed (which should be very rare), individual comments are better than a machine-generated, automatic egg.

I've been kind of fascinated by this discussion as well.  We are talking about running here, not our eternal salvation (although for some there may not be much differentiation. :))  In other words, I think we are being overly sensitive about this.  If I get a goose egg, big deal, I'm not going to be offended or have my feelings hurt by that.  I save that for much bigger things.  I think I would appreciate the motivation to not get a goose egg and to make sure I got my run in for the day.  That's my proverbial two cents worth.

I actually don't care about the goose egg itself, it's more about the spirit of negativity behind it. More philosophical than pragmatic. Plus, I just like to argue with Sasha. I think arguing is some sort of Russian pastime, and he is very good at it.

BTW - Sasha often jokingly refers to the blog as "The One True Religion". That's where some of the religious-type expressions come from.

I think of them more as "spirited discussions" and enjoy them for the most part, as well.  It is interesting to hear other's viewpoints and the thinking behind them.  Even though we sometimes have to simply agree to disagree.

So that probably explains what happened between Steve and Sasha on my blog the other day.  They just like having "spirited discussions" and there are no hard feelings.

Never hard feelings with Sasha.

While we are at it we should find so other negative reinforcers.

-A big red DNF for anyone who drops out of a race.
-A broken bone for anyone who trains through an injury and loses months of running.
-Something for people who don't recover after a marathon or tough races/workouts.
-Maybe even a pitchfork for those of us who enjoy running on the last part of the weekend.

Hilarious. I was thinking red flames, but pitchfork works too.

Dallen, I'm glad to see that you can keep us laughing through this.

Since I skipped my run on Saturday I went ahead and took the initiative and posted my own goose egg picture on my blog.
http://sz.fastrunningblog.com/

Of course my reasons why, were posted on Friday's blog.

That is the best idea I've seen yet on this thread. I'm going to find myself a red pitchfork icon for my Sunday runs! And I'm going to find a Pinnochio image with a long nose for the Monday entries where I enter mileage that I really spent out on the trail the previous day (hey- my kids read this). Hilarious!

No hard feelings to Sasha. I actually like the idea of spicing things up with icons and images. I would laugh about a goose egg image on a lazy day, but I think it would create too many problems in general. People saying "Hey wait! I'm hurt! I'm tired. I don't deserve that goose egg! That's not fair... blah blah". I don't see enough of a benefit from it to warrant the headaches.

Glad to see this goose egg idea is not happening as I agree with the majority and quite frankly don't want to make the logging any more complicated.  I joined the FRB for the run logging and friendly running community and I would hate to see something that starts turning it negative or too focused on running as an addiction (it already is for me, but that is by choice, not coercion).   

So, that must be why I have headaches, my horns are growing from my Sunday runs!

I thought the headaches were from my running hangovers.

New choice under Blog Options:  Enable Goose Egg.

Chad, You got me. I looked for it. I want the eggs!!!  :D

I looked, too.

Mine are probably just real hangovers.

I know that I came in late for this whole discussion, but I think that after reading this quote, we should all go to the main homepage and read the description of this site.  Are the two points of view about as completely opposite as you can get?

Not at all. I wrote both texts. We want to end up with fast runners. We will take slow ones and make them fast.

I know that I personally might not be "running" for a bit because of this prolonged achilles problem... will there be a way to mark days off but then switch them for other days around schedules and when i'm feeling okay or not so hot? I'm a little confused how this goose egg thing works. I know I'd like to run fast, but right now I'd be happy with just being able to run 4-5 days a week pain free..

Benn - the plan was to allow the blogger to mark days as "scheduled day off", or "off due to injury". However, even then, the vote was against the feature, so I am not going to do it. At least for a while. I might implement it optionally where the user gets to decide if he wants Goose Eggs On or Off, and then after a year publish the improvement data for each group.

Oh okay. Well I know that if I were healthy again that Goose Eggs would be a deterent from me slacking. Well maybe even with biking and other x-training, I wouldn't like to see many Goose Eggs myself, and I agree that the feature for those with the aggressive "can and will do" attitude, it would definitely reap results.

I agree with Maria: I am someone who would probably benefit from the goose egg.  I can be extremely focused at times (like right now), but, as some of you probably noticed, I stopped running almost completely after a bad performance in a marathon this past January because I was so discouraged.  And then I just got lazy.  I did get a few check-ins every once in a while, but they weren't enough to bring me back. 
Now I am right back to where I was when I started blogging about 9 months ago.  I lost most of the fitness I had built up just from a zap in motivation, and it will take me that much longer to reach my BQ goal.  Obviously this kind of inconsistency is what the blog preaches against.  A goose-egg when my motivation is lagging would give me a good kick in the butt.
I am generally hard on myself, so I don't mind when other people (or computer-generated images) are hard on me too, if it helps me get better.

Very interesting discussion.  As a high school and college athelete who held my own in organized team sports, I responded much more productively to positive reinforcement.  Believe me, I had coaches who took the negative route (didn't phase me, yet didn't really help).  However, some people respond better to negative reinforcement.  I've learned as a parent of six, my children respond differently to different styles.  My oldest need constant affirmation and a great big "I believe in you", while my 5th really responds to a gigantic kick in the pants.  Both John Wooden and Bob Knight are "Hall of Fame" coaches.  Personally, I'd prefer Wooden, yet Knight helped several individuals and teams to reach their potential and even go beyond.  Sasha, I admire your motive and goals and I hope to benefit from this blog, goose egg or not.