Dave's Addiction

Well done Davina. I laughed at the Brett bit - 'He was very tall. I don't think he saw me.' Good run and you didn't slow too much. That mad training you do sure is working:)

More importantly, what's Iron Man 3 like? We're going to watch it on Friday.

I've just spotted, somewhere else, there was an Iron Man race on today. I suspect that's what you went to watch:)

I rather liked it, but I was annoyed by the last minute in the same way that the last minute of Titanic pissed me off. Definitely worth the time to see though. Lots of comedy.

Still though it would be fun to see the type of training you might come up with, I have the Timp Trail half next week so I have to run up two canyons in the next two weeks without stopping.

Dave:

I think the reason you go out "too fast" is that you simply do not have the endurance to run the right pace, but you do have the speed. I would recommend something like this to fix it:

Start with a 3 mile tempo run - Hobblecreek canyon going down is a good place for somebody in Mapleton, and work on holding 5:00 if that is where you do it. A little slower otherwise. Basically, start the 3 mile tempo run the way you start your races, and try to make that pace comfortable for 3, not just 2. 3 is an important threshold, it is harder to fool yourself for 3 miles than it is for 2, so if you do fool yourself in the first 2, then the third one is just perfect for developing fitness and character.

Once you get used to that, do 3, jog 2 miles back, and then another 2 down. Same pace. Next step, 2x3 with the 3 mile repositioning job in between, again same pace. Once you have mastered that, try the same thing with a shorter jog in between. Then try 3 up at 6:00 pace, jog a mile or so to recover, then back down 3 at 5:00.

All of the above needs to be backed up by consistent easy mileage, of course. On easy runs, does not matter how slow it is, just enjoy the nature. But do push the hard runs.

Hey! That's a REALLY good idea, I think it would be the best workout of the week. I'll give that a try later next week, I bet mile 3 will be murder :)

great race Dave. Nice to see ya again...

Thanks, glad you are getting the muscle niggles under control. See you at AF!

Great race. I was right - after the gun went off, I never saw you again. That Kody is something, isn't she?!

I didn't believe she was real when she passed me, and I am still having trouble believing it now. You got a huge PR and she destroyed us both! That's hilarious about your kid's shoe :)

Congrats Dave! I think you should have ran with that blanket if it was the same one you had post race ;).

Actually, I remember thinking how thankful I was that I didn't have it the last 11 miles, and how much I wish I had kept it the first 2 :)

Great race and time Dave. Lots of fast quality work seemed to have really paid for you.

Thanks, I was worried I had overdone it with the speedwork but two days of light workouts and the bouncy legs came back Friday night. Now I just have to figure out what to do to get fast enough to beat Steve from Heber in the Timp Trail on 5/18. And what is it about people named Steve that makes them so fast? I mean seriously, there's Steve Sumsion and Steve Anderson (although I beat him this time, ho ho) and it seems like every time I run a race I get beat by someone named Steve. And red hair. Holy smokes those redheads are fast. Hey I probably shouldn't post until the anesthetic from the dentist wears off, but what the heck :)

Dave:

That was our reasoning when we named our seventh son Stephen. We were thinking of Steve Jones, Steve Cram and Steve Ovett.

Some other good boy names: Sebastian, Jim, Frank, Lasse, Haile, Mohammed, Kenenisa, Miruts.

Girl names: Tirunesh, Meseret, Paula, Fatuma, Joan.

Congrats on the race. You ran with guts and heart.

With that being said, I simply cannot read your race reports and not comment on you going out too fast everytime. I know several people have told you that you are killing your times by doing that (so this is likely pointless), but I will add my voice to that crowd anyway.

Here's an anecdote from college:

Coach and I are watching a girl on our team run the 5k, and she goes out about 4 seconds too fast per lap for the first 3 laps.

Coach: Someone should give that girl a hat.

Me: Huh? Why?

Coach: So she actually has a use for her head.

Me: Haha you don't think she can hold that pace eh?

Coach: No way. She will fade to almost last place. Absolutely idiotic pacing!

Sure enough she faded very badly and finished next to last after being with the leaders in the first mile.

Coach's motto was "Steady the pace wins the race". I think you could run substantially faster with your current fitness level if you would actually pace yourself more wisely (at least a minute faster for HM, maybe 1.5 minutes).

I hope this doesn't come off as rude or annoying, since I don't really know you. But a lot of times we only get positive feedback on this blog, when sometimes we need constructive criticism. You clearly have talent to be able to run as fast as you do, why not try to maximize that talent by pacing wisely?

Riley:

My approach to deal with "going out too fast" is to understand the reason for it. Usually it is that the runner does not get appropriate pain thresholds triggered early enough. But why?

I always want to explore the possibility that the runner is actually capable of maintaining the pace he starts at for the whole distance or most of it, but has not yet been properly conditioned, either physically or mentally, or both. Thus the workouts that I suggested earlier.

In fact, that lack of fear of distance can be a positive. Fitness can be gained, but it is extremely hard to overcome the fear of the distance. The governor kicks in, and you settle into a pace that is below your true best even though you have earned a faster pace already with your fitness. The cause being is that you've placed yourself into a lower bracket for so long that every fiber of your being refuses to believe that you are now in a higher bracket. If that fear is not there, I would not be in a hurry to cultivate it in even if it will temporarily result in running the half a minute or so faster.

Sasha: Anyone can run fast for the first 15% of the race without hurting too much (look at every high school race that ever occurred). I could go out at 4:36, slow to 4:49 (which is about the same percentage faster than race pace for me as for what Dave went out in) and I would still not be red-lined. So, does that mean I should shoot for 60-minute half marathon pace every race until eventually I hold it? The answer is a resounding no!

Going out a little fast is ok, but 10% faster than your overall average pace is way too fast!

On your blog today you threw down the challenge to find a sub-2:07 runner who wasn't religious. So here's another challenge, name a sub-2:07 runner who went out 10% faster than his overall pace in the first mile.

“Great wits are sure to madness near allied - And thin partitions do their bounds divide” John Dryden.

Dave thinks he's a yeti - he doesn't understand what you're talking about.

Riley:

We do need to adjust for the first mile being downhill :-) That said, Steve Jones and Gerry Lindgren had a reputation of being a rabbit and running their guts out.

Of course, to run sub-2:07 requires not only going through the first mile in around 4:40-4:45, but to not slow down after that. Which comes after training. But you cannot get there if you think your marathon pace is fundamentally slower and you have no business opening it 10% faster than what you have done in the past. With such beliefs you simply will not train at the intensities that are required for moving into an upper bracket.

You may actually want to try some version of the "ridiculous" pacing you suggested if you really honestly believe that 4:36, 4:49, 4:49 does not make you red-lined without the downhill. If you can even get to the 3 mile mark with those splits in Utah on a loop course at all, with or without comfort, I am going to argue that you do have a 1:03 in the making either on a course like UVM half, or on an honest fast sea-level course. It will take work - both physical and mental - to make it actually happen, but the first step is to run that pace thinking you can hold it, and the best way to learn to even dare think you can hold it is to be in a race situation where you get to mile 3 like that, and then you have to competitively finish the remaining 10.

Ok the first mile at Provo City is downhill (as is the entire course but the first mile more so), but St. George half isn't downhill for the first mile in fact it's slightly uphill. And Dave started at 5:21 pace in that race and finished in a 6:05 average. I'm sorry but that's not smart racing. (Dave I'm sorry this debate between Sasha and me got stuck on your page and that you have become the subject of a debate - it wasn't my intent - after a day or so I will go back and delete these so you don't have to see them).

In fact after looking back at St. George and comparing it to Provo, I'd say Dave has made some progress.

As for me I was assuming the same course profile with my 4:36/4:49 actually I was assuming the SLC half I just ran. And maybe just maybe 1:03 is in me, but that is long-term and going out in 4:36 and finishing in 1:08-1:09 instead of 4:59 and 1:07 isn't going to help me get to that 1:03. 10% is too fast for the first mile!

See in my mind, racing smart (close to even-paced) and slowly chipping away at your PR is a much better approach than going out too fast and hoping that one day it'll stick.

I think one gains much more confidence if they run say 5:30 pace for the first half of the race and 5:15 pace for the second half rather than the opposite. And certainly I would be way more confident in my abilities if I start a race at 5:54-5:55 pace for two miles and am able to close with a 5:25-5:12 rather than to start 5:12 5:25 and finish with 5:54 5:55.

With all your experience in running Sasha it's hard for me to believe you advocate positive splitting a race. There's a difference between going out a few seconds faster than your PR and hoping to PR than going out at your 3k pace and knowing that you will never hold it. Fearless isn't the same as wise.

Riley:

I am not advocating positive splitting. I am advocating breaking out of the rut. The side effect of the training process sometimes is positive splitting, but the idea is this:

- we recognize that there is a reason that the runner naturally starts out fast

- we make him hold the pace he started out at until he drops dead

- we resurrect him and ask him why he died and what he saw on the other side of the veil

- with the new revealed knowledge we train him better so next time he dies a mile later

- we resurrect him again and repeat the process until he can make it to the finish at the pace he starts. When that happens, he even-splits the race.

This approach can actually work, worked for Gerry Lindgren and a few other runners of that type. It requires a combination of guts and wisdom. A lot of people quit too early because it hurts, and also because their rabbit tactics are being looked down upon by other runners. Then there is this step of resurrecting and learning from the other side of the veil that is not trivial - I am only half-joking here - while no literal resurrection is usually required, there is a special breakthrough experience in which I believe the other side is involved frequently without our awareness. But the other side only provides a gentle hint and direction - on each round we still need to figure out what we are going to do in training and recovery to help us last another mile at the target pace. That is where the wisdom part comes in.

Riley - you would actually be a perfect candidate physically for this approach because you have the speed. While I cannot know exactly how you feel in your races, from the remarks you've made I am suspecting that the pace you start out that ends up being too fast took less effort out of you than the pace that I started out when I ran even or negative split. In my best shape, I have dreaded half-marathons - it hurt from mile one. It was a 5 K that lasted over an hour. When you have the aerobic fitness, it is next impossible to start the half too fast - the mere thought of having to go 13 miles puts on enough of a break on your running that you have a hard time hitting the target pace.

With 3:42 1500 PR this will not be a problem for you for some time. The challenge is to make it the same problem it was for me. When you reach it, you will run around 60 minutes. Some of your muscle fibers may be resistant against aerobic training, so you may run into that barrier around 63 minutes. Or maybe not. I think you can get to at least 63, then we'll see. But first step is to heal your knee and make it resilient.

Oh wow this is great! I was stuck in a meeting all day. Don't even think of deleting this stuff, it makes me think. And I am going to probably try the first half-KGB tomorrow, because I really do need to break out of the rut I am in. Hopefully I will work up to the full KGB in a few weeks :)

OK, now I actually read all this stuff. I am going to try an experiment in the next half that is on my controlled course, the Hobbler Half. I am going to absolutely slam a ceiling for the first mile at whatever I can redline a downhill three mile at, plus 10 seconds. Then I will keep at that effort level no matter what until mile 8. Then, hopefully, I will have some room to step it up by about 5-10% for the last 5 miles and try to negsplit.

For purposes of this argument here, I was breathing easy the first mile and didn't get any lactic twinges at all until the end of the second, then I held it just below that level for the rest of the race. My level equivalent speed appeared to go from 5:50 at mile 3 to 6:00 at mile 10, so a definite decline there.

Oh oops you said half :)

Never mind, totally guilty, really bad time too as a result but I knew I was screwed by mile 4.

This is really fun reading! I was a really bad fast starter in college in the mile. I can add to these comments that it was drilled out of me. For the better. When I started running again at 40 the old habit came back.

Dave, good to see you had a great race. I'm sure you've beat me before. :-) And I like the Master's Domination plan. Hey wasn't that Pinky and the Brain? Maybe that was world domination...

You figured it out! I always liked Pinky and the Brain. Some days I'm Brain. Others, well, narrff. I almost posted to your blog on Friday that you should go to Vernal because I thought you would win. I still think you can be faster than me - maybe it's because you are a Steve, and I fear the Steves :) I mean think about it - there's Steve Prefontaine, and Steve Austin - it's like the name has power all by itself. But I'll find that good balance of going out too fast and getting ahead and maybe hold on to the slim lead for a while.

Bam - Dave IS a yeti :). A really fast one. When he gets this figured out he's going to be dangerous.

Last year I thought I was in pretty good shape. Well I signed up for big springs (8k trail race) and thought that I would be able to take it to Dave because he goes out too fast. Sure enough, Dave goes out like he was shot out of a canon. And continues that way even when the nasty climb starts. He then walked a bit and that's when i passed him. Then, about 5 minutes later he blasts past me again and i was pretty frustrated but i knew i would get him on the last climb. I did. But then he got me again on the downhill, which i am honestly pretty good at.

What I'm getting at here is Dave has mad talent. And he's fearless. And he doesn't care if he has to slow up because he believes he is going to catch you again if you pass him. Admirable qualities those. If he does experiment and learns to cage that up until the half way point, and learns how to use that talent... well... watch out :). He gets faster every season regardless.

Well geez, a nice compliment like that just makes me want to go run more and pay attention. But now that I think about it so does constructive criticism :) I will run the treadmill progression tomorrow morning in your honor. Which means of course that I can't stop early...