Work will win when wishy washy wishing won't

Hel-ooooo fellow runner! (you know like Tigger) GRRRR-eat (like tony)to see you this morning! It is so cool to know all the fast runners that pass me in the AM ;)

Thank you, thank you very much! (like Elvis). It was great to see you out and about!

Great job on this run Kim! You ran strong and seemingly effortless both uphill and down. Makes me wonder if your SG marathon pace might be closer to 8:30 than to 9 like we've been thinking. This would put you around a 3:45-3:50 marathon and a BQ.

Kim, Thanks for getting Tom going after the WBR. He needed a bit of Kid-napping. You're training is going great. Don't let that coach of yours take the fun out of running by pushing your goal pace to low.

A few years ago Tom's goal was to qualify for Boston which he did with a PR of 3:17 then he moved it to breaking the 3 hour bearier which is 17 minutes faster than his very best and before he even realized the 3 hour goal he is now talking 2:50. I think he'd be happier man if his goal was Sub 3 hours or 2:59:59. I'm impressed with anyone that has run many marathons and then goes and takes off 17 minutes. It's not like that good man of yours has only run one marathon and is trying to take 17 minutes off. Tom has run many and he is trying to take 17 minutes off the best of them all.

Terry - lately Kim is the one doing most the pushing, usually coach Tom is the one trying to slow her down a bit. She seems to really get into these faster workouts.

You know Terry you are partially to blame (along with Sasha) for my sub-3 goal heading toward sub-2:50. You made me run fast enough at that SLCTC 10K we ran together that I start noticing the race predictor is telling me 2:50 is doable and then Sasha starts telling me that people I finished close to in the 10K are 2:45 marathoners!

I have to say the last few days I am feeling the excitement and fire come back as far as running (it helps when the ulcers go away and the injuries start actually healing) and I will be happy to take whatever SGM gives me as long as I feel like I've made a decent effort. My latest thinking is that I'll wait and see how my training runs and 1/2 marathons are looking in August and September and then based on that I'll figure what is a reasonable goal for SGM. I would be still be just tickled to run a sub-3 and I would be completely estatic to go sub-2:50 and come close to your best time.

But I think I've learned some lessons the last few weeks about listening closely to what your body tells you..., rest when you need to, not necessarily just when your schedule says to, have fun, enjoy being healthy, take care of and enjoy family and friends, don't worry, and be happy.

Kim, I agree with Tom: you probably could go sub-3:50 at St. George with your current pace. What an amazing marathon debut! (It will be your first, right?). You are doing so well! I had a hard time with the mile repeats today...

Shauna keep in mind we were doing these repeats downhill so don't sweat your pace for the miles you did today on flat (and probably HOT). Also we didn't do the 400s this week and you did so I'm sure that makes a difference.

Kind of cool you and Kim are both doing the Brain Training workouts. I've found for me doing the 3 hard workouts a week with the mileage base I have seems to be too much, so I haven't been doing the 400s as I think they are probably the least important for marathon training.

Kim has been handling the 3 hard-day-a-week fine so far but my opinion is that we could all get the same benefits with lower risk of injury and burnout by adding in additional slow miles and getting the average daily mileage up a little higher (i.e. 7 or 8 miles a day instead of 6, with long run on Saturday). So I've given Kim the option to substitute a longer, slower run in place of the short interval workout. This also usually means the legs are fresher for the other 2 hard workouts (mile-repeats/tempo and long run) and you can push a little harder on these.

Of course everyone is different and no 2 runners can handle the training in the same way so we are all trying to find the proper balance.

One thing I try to keep in mind is that the training schedules in the "Brain" book are just suggestions with the real idea in the book being that we do our workouts based on what our bodies can handle and on what they are telling us we should be doing (more in line with what Sasha would say, I know he likes the Brain book but not so much the workout schedules).

Trouble is it's real hard for most runners to do this, it's much easier to follow a training schedule to the letter of the law and think we need to do exactly what it says. I'm really bad at falling in to this trap myself and that is the reason I've been partially injured and not running up to potential as of late.

Hope we can all find the perfect balance and run our very BEST at SGM!!!!

Wow I got a bit long-winded there...sorry about that!

Tom, thanks for your comments. Michelle also said that 400s are not that important for marathon training. I'm detecting a theme here! The short intervals, tempo runs, and long runs (but less mileage overall) helped me set a 17-minute marathon PR in 2006. Then again, running only slow miles, per Sasha, brought me within one minute of my half marathon PR last winter. I'm still trying to figure out how my body best responds. I do think the longer intervals, like today's, are key for the marathon, so your suggestion to increase the daily mileage and maybe drop the short speed workouts might work well for me too (my husband won't like that-he is a slave to the plan!).

I am glad that you are feeling better and that you're getting excited again. Here's hoping that we all peak perfectly for St. George! Thanks again for your comments.

Great job Kim you are kicking some serious butt! Keep working hard and good things seem to happen:-)

Shauna one other thought specific to SGM training.....maybe you're already doing this....but with all the downhill in SGM it is critical to incorporate just a bit of uphill (for Veyo mtn and mile 19) and TONS of downhill training.

So with Kim and I we'll typically be doing one of the hard workouts (usually the tempo and sometimes long run) running down some canyon to get the legs used to all the pounding over miles and miles. The downhill training can be dangerous and you don't want something too steep but for anyone who has run SGM both with and without the downhill training, it's like night and day. Watching how runners come down the stairs the day after SGM you could probably predict who trained on the downhills and who didn't.

Tom- when it is steep, what is the best thing to do? Walk, jog slowly? We are doing more canyon runs (1 a week) and I don't want to blow anything out. Any basic things to avoid? Any dumb mistakes beginners make running down hill that can be avoided? All of my regular runs are hilly-ish (virtually no flat running)

Good question Marion and I'm not sure I've completely figured out the best answer. Payson canyon can be really bad (as far as steepness) in some spots, especially between Payson Lakes and Maple Dell. I suppose there is always increased risk running steep downhill no matter what you do. I know some guys who won't ever do the all-downhill run from Payson Lakes to Pateetneet because of the risk. They just do the up/down run from Pateetneet up as far as Maple Dell and back down. I like to compromise and do both, usually trading off every week.

Provo canyon is probably better since it's more gradual but on a weekday with limited time it's not usually an option for many of us to drive clear over there.

The strategy that has worked for me in the past included the following precautions:

Ease into the downhill running in general. In other words the very first time you run down the canyon don't go some crazy distance that is way more than what you typically do every day, just because it feels so easy with gravity on your side. Err on the side of caution here.

For example even though I run about 10 miles a day on average, the first time I do the Payson down run (all downhill, not like the up/down we did today) I'll only run to Beercan flat (8 miles) the first couple of times and then go all the way to Pateetneet (11.25 miles I thing?) after that. For Kim who usually runs 6-7 miles a day I'll recommend she only go to Maple Dell the first couple times (around 5 1/2 miles I think), then work up to 8 and maybe not go any further than this except maybe once or twice after doing 8 a multiple times.

While it is good to practice some fast running downhill for SGM training, I think it's best to save the faster running for the more gradual downhill sections and just run the steep parts at a very controlled, comfortable pace. Pay particular attention to form and try not to bound/bounce down the hill (don't run like the deer) but rather stick with a short stride, quick step, shuffle run/jog that minimizes the impact of the footstrike.

If you ever feel any weird pain or anything that feels like you may have just turned your ankle or tweaked your back (this has happened to me), DON'T try and finish out the workout and worry about the possible injury later. Immediately stop running and let your running partner(s) know what happened and have them run down and drive back up to pick you up. It's nice to run with more than 1 partner since it can get pretty lonely and spooky if you end up the canyon alone, especially if it happens to be pitch black like it gets in September in the morning.

In your case it helps that all your regular runs are already hillish so your legs should already be adapted somewhat.

Typically I'll be pretty sore the first couple times out but after that the legs adapt and soon you get so you can fly down the hills pretty speedy and not feel much different the day after than you do after any other run.

One nice side benefit of the downhill running is that in my experience it helps make you faster, similar to speedwork, but without all the huffing-and-puffing. Part of running faster is just getting the legs used to the tempo and idea of how running faster feels.

Yet another long-winded answer so hope I'm not putting people to sleep. As you can see things are a bit slow at my job today.

THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH, Tom! THat is EXACTLY the type of information I have been looking for!

So the basic jist is- not too long of a run, about your average daily mileage. Short, shuffle style stride and slow is OK, particularily on the steep stuff. Save the fast stuff for a more gentle slope.

Now would it be stupid to start the run at Maple dell (or beercan flats) and finish the rest of our long run in a more flat-ish grade around town or on the canal? ( we were going to have my hubby dump us 9 miles from my house and glide down)

Coach tom :) what would you recommend? Tomorrow is our long run, 9 miles, we were up for some canyon running. I did Provo 10 miler a few weeks ago and kicked my bum (which is OK, it was a race) I dont want to kick my bum tomorrow- I just want to do some canyon training in prep for hobble creek. #1 rule- live to run another day! I don't want to be stupid and do something I should not. We have been running up the canyon a bit a few days a week, but not very far (walker flats-ish)

Oh wise one- enlighten me!

Marion, I'll throw in my two cents, for what it's worth. Keep in mind, most of my runs are flat and on dirt. First of all, I posted this exact question in the discussion forum under training review requests. I got some good advice, so check it out! And feel free to post on that discussion, so more people can get involved.

Let me just tell you what NOT to do: this past weekend, I did 12 miles. The first 5.6 miles were very steep downhill (over 1000 feet elevation drop) and on a paved road. Then we did a 5-mile out and back loop that was downhill on the way, and 2.5 BRUTAL uphill miles on the way back (it was already 90 degrees, and I had a little heat episode and had to walk...another topic entirely!). The last two miles or so were gentle downhill.

Well, let me tell you, Sunday and Monday I could hardly walk (part of that was a toe injury...yet another topic-see Monday's entry). In fact, I had to skip my run entirely on Monday and do the dreaded cardio machines at the gym.

Granted, I don't know how much of the soreness came from the downhill vs the pavement, but I'm willing to guess it was mainly the downhill.

I think I can work up to that route without being sore, but the moral of the story is: moderation is key! I would also recommend simulating the course as much as possible (are you doing St. George?). In other words, start with the uphill, and end with the downhill.

Tom, thanks for the 19-mile hill heads-up. I had heard about Veyo, but that's all. That would have been a nasty surprise!

Hey, do you think Kim will get most comments of the day???

Thanks Shauna. I really am not one to go too far over board. We have been going up the canyon and then down (we've done up to ~7 w/o any soreness or noticeable fatigue. Maybe for or 9 miler tomorrow, we'll go up 4.5 and then "gently glide" back down ;) It is SUPER cool up the canyon at 6am and we always run on the pavement. I am going to go look at your post right now! THANKS AGAIN!!!

Shauna - the hill during the first 1/2 of mile 19 isn't really much of a hill (I think mile 19 is still net downhill overall), and is nothing compared to Veyo, but it feels worse than it really is because it comes at a point in the race where a lot of people are prone to hitting the wall so it can seem like a mountain. I think this is the point where a training plan of "higher-mileage, less speed-work" begins to shine compared to the "less miles, more speed-work" mentality.

Marion - I think you will be OK starting at Maple Dell and finishing on the more flat roads. You've done a few longer runs recently (8-10 miles) so the distance shouldn't come as too huge of a shock to your legs.

Just run relaxed and easy and resist the temptation to push the downhill this time around. The day or 2 after the run if your legs feel really hammered then you probably went too fast, but if you can run this route easy and still feel pretty good the day or 2 then perhaps next time you could try speeding up a bit on the not so steep downhill sections and gradually speed up the run each time you run it up until the Hobble race.

This seems like a good training run for Hobble Creek since if I am remembering the Hobble course correctly (it's been a few years) I think this is similar to what you'll experience there. Quite steep the first few miles then leveling off more toward the end.

That being said (doing my best Sasha imitation here...), after looking over your training regiment the last few weeks since you joined the blog, I notice you are usually running 6 days a week. This is GOOD. But I also notice your average daily mileage varies between around 2 to 6 miles a day. While a half marathon is certainly doable on this schedule, I suspect things could get tough the last 2-3 miles.

I'm not sure what your schedule is like and by all means the #1 priority is just to get out 6 days a week with whatever miles you can manage. Running 3 miles 6 days a week beats running 6 miles 3 days a week. But if you are wanting to see the type of rapid, dramatic improvement that many runners (like Kim) on the blog have seen over just a few months time, you will want to try and work up to where you are averaging 5-6 miles, 6 days a week, with possibly a run of 6-12 miles on Saturday. If you decide to build up the mileage in this way you should just keep the pace in the very easy range and not worry about speed. If you can manage this I am almost certain you will see huge improvements in your speed at all distances. No speedwork or tempo runs required. Pretty cool huh?

Hey Kim - looks like your blog kinda got hijacked! Sorry about that! But I figure all the advice being passed around applies to you as well, even though you've probably already heard me say all this stuff many times already.

Hello? Anyone remember me? ;0) I came home from work to find some active bloggers out there! This is a great discussion! Lots of good advice out there! I just want to add to Tom's last comment. I definitely believe that working up to 6 miles a day, 6 days a week is the biggest key to any improvement I have seen since starting running last September! I have started running two other times in my life. Both of them I was able to get to a 1/2 marathon, but had injuries following that took me out of action. I was only running 3-4 miles a day

I hate it when that happens...at least it just posted too soon instead of deleting everything I had written...

As I was saying.../3 days a week and then a long, (8 or 9 miles), run on Saturday.

I actually and following a plan- up my miles by 2 a week for three weeks and then cut back 20% then start out the next week at the ave. of the prev. three weeks and add by 2 a week, etc, etc. My long runs are 9,6,10,7,11,8,12,9, etc. I am majorly paranoid about injury so I tend to be pretty conservative.

Now if you professional runners tell me that I could up my mileage a little faster and not KILL myself, I'm game. I just live by the mantra- live to run another day. NEver do anything STUPID that can cut the running off ;)

I was doing six days a week up until may when I was told to take another rest day. Then Kim got a hold of me and I went back to 6.

My hobble creek goal is important to me, but not as important is building mileage responsibly and WITHOUT injury :)

I am totaly fine with pushing myself if I won't do too much damage (I can live with sore muscles!- I like them- I pretend it is my fat screaming) I'm also good with slow and steady wins the race ;)

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me Marion.

sorry- me again. NO SPEED WORK!!! :) I love that!!! I am so on board with that!!! You guys are my new best friends!!!