Wheeler Farm Loops

I don't read anything unless it's people, us weekly, or the occasional running times. That book does look interesting though so read it for us all and tell us what you learn. :)

For me I know for a fact my problem is the opposite! It is my ultra running friends that run around with those fancy backpacks of 100 ounces+ of water that worry me.

Noakes is insanely smart and his research is incredibly thorough. He came up with the Central Governor theory. You have to sort of being in an "academic mood" to read his stuff... he thinks a lot of what we are told about hydration in endurance sports doesn't have much scientific basis, and that most people tend to over-do it on drinking, salt, etc. The Q&A I linked gives a good, quick overview of what he is saying.

I read through 80% of the Q&A. Interesting stuff, enough to pique my interest to want to read the book. The crazy thing is I've always tried to think about hydration the week before a marathon, but in a race I only drink when I'm thirsty. I've also never taken S-caps or the like. I know for some people, like Kelli's hubby, they are essential to stop cramping, but I've never seen a need to use them personally. So, maybe I'm more in his camp than Gatorades. I really want to read the book now. I'm a academic nerd with stuff like this, okay with most stuff. I also like to read the legal notices in the paper...best part of the paper most of the time :)

I read Noakes "running bible" but I had not seen this. Thanks for the heads up.

Okay I read the Q&A and it is INCREDIBLY interesting and basically completely goes against everything I have ever been told. That said I've finished 2 marathons in the dehydrated state and it is not a pretty picture. hmmm definitely making me think!

Yeah Noakes isn't saying "DONT DRINK"...

... he's saying think critically about what you are being told and find a strategy that works for you.

For instance, some elite marathoners can lose 8-10% of their body weight while racing. For other people, that might completely destroy their ability to perform. Its highly individualized.

I have been on the dehydration end of things but usually because I was the day before. Not anything I did the during the race. The line I like from the Q%A and really getting to the GU practice is:

"Get steady sugar; the one true performance-enhancer."

Yeah that's the take-home that I am trying to doing a better job of applying.

You running home today? I'll probably leave a little after 4pm heading toward SugarHouse.

Yes - I could probably get out of here by 430.

I'll check in at 4:15 before I go to change.

"it is OK to drink only water..."

"be minimalist, especially with the things the body doesn’t easily handle: water and salt...listen to your body!"

i've had a lot of people tell me i would run better in marathons with better fueling. while i appreciate the input, i have always disagreed, because i know what i can and cannot handle. the slow down from the issues i would encounter from consuming fuel and water that my stomach can't handle is greater than the slow down from lack of fuel. i'm pretty certain of this after several experiments. but again, that is for me personally. i do understand that everyone is different.

very interesting post.

Very good read. It is probably not a good idea for me to loose 8-10% (I would be down to 110 to 112 lbs) of weight during a marathon, however in my emense experience of racing two marathons I have only taken water to thirst (mostly to wash down a GU) and haven't noticed any real effects of dehydration. I rarely take water on training runs through 20 miles (unless it is rather hot).

Allie - I hear that... vomiting up "fuel" doesn't exactly make me want to run any faster :-) The marathon where I took exactly 1 gel and drank minimally is the one where I ran the best...

Chad - the most famous 10% example comes from Haile Geb... he only weighed 120 lbs or so to start! It seems like that is the extreme, though. I've been getting an idea of how much water loss I can tolerate on the last couple long runs... I can drop 7-8 lbs pretty easily on a hot run w/out really noticing any bad side effects.

Allie - I know that there was no amount of fuel of water that I could have taken during the Ogden Marathon this year to keep my last 5k from being 24 minutes+. That last 5k strength was lost in training not fueling.

Chad - I'd argue that if you hooked up an IV of Mountain Dew directly into your heart, your last 5K would have been like 14:12

Jake - I stand corrected - and forget the diet stuff...

Havent' read it but there's a lot of interesting discussion going on about it. One particulary interesting forum is the following link where Noakes himself joins the discussion.

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?s=6841194c83d7a6fd96f557cd97b79882&showtopic=68612&st=60

While there's reason to be concerned with a "drink as much as possible" directive (especially for shorter distances), water and especially salt (in my case) is critical at the ultra distances. I realize he's not saying "don't drink" but even drink less...I don't think so. I can't enough especially with Wasatch, Kat'cina Mosa and others in the Utah heat. Overhydration is not the issue.

Kendall - I think the 100 mile races in hot, arid environments completely change the game. Physiologically its a lot different than 2-3 hours on the roads.

Noakes claims to have studied ultra athletes as well and maintains that the same "we're drinking too much" principles apply--this is where I take issue. I'd be interested to know under what conditions his subjects were tested.

Guess one of us needs to read this book! :-)

Where's Rob Murphy when you need him?

When I was watching the Olympic marathon (mens), I noticed that most of the runners were taking their own bottles every 5k or so. Were they energy drinks? What's the sketch with gels? Do you take gels on top of carb drinks every 5k? I didn't notice any of the marathoners taking gels. The chap in the article said he was taking 3 gels an hour. Is this right? How do you carry all these gels in a marathon?

I haven't done this but I have one friend squeeze his gels into his water bottles and dissolve them. He then took a bottle every 20 min so about 3 gels per hour.

Mini bottles partially filled so he wasn't over hydrating... He had myself and a few other friends and family scattered on the course.

Chad you just destroyed my web browser layout of this page with that link!

I don't think any top guys take gels during a marathon. They are moving way too fast. Any calories they get come from their drinks. Try running a 68 second quarter on the track and eating something while you are doing that! Personally, I'd prefer to do it the same way. I don't necessarily love how the gels make me want to vomit. At CIM I'll be able to get my own bottles every 5K or so. At TOU, hopefully Andrea can just bike along and hand me what I want.

Adam - I've seen a training video w/ Josh Cox where he was doing the same thing... dissolving the gels into his drinks.

There you go. I think I found the longest link known to man. Lost and lots of pockets.

goo.gl makes long links much more manageable :-)

I need to read it. iRF article on the book, that is.

I think the point about "it depends" is helpful to keep in mind. I've switched to the Cliff blocks because they don't have all the crap of the gels. They taste much better, but I'm not sure the delivery system is faster. I tend to put them in my teeth one at a time and chew slowly (it avoids the over-full GU mouth problem while trying to breath).

This post also reminds me of the glut of training advice out there, much of it conflicting. Today I read you shouldn't do doubles unless you are running 75 miles per week. I understand the author's point , but I've also benefited (as near as I can tell) greatly from working them in, even though I am just under that figure. I'm also thinking through the difference between the Hanson Brother's advice and the long run advice. They point out that European plans top out at 18 and change (I think 30 km).

I think the joy of running (and there are many) is constantly trying to figure out what will work better, say like lunge-walking 27 minute miles and wearing weighted vests...sorry I just brought that topic back in the ring.

Jason, I'd suggest doubling up as early as possible. Here's why:

Up to a point, you get diminishing returns from aerobic runs longer than 35 mins - that doesn't mean you don't get returns; the returns are diminishing.

Also, your ligaments, tendons, and bones etc develop more in-line with your CV fitness if you increase your mileage through doubles (note how many people get injured through increasing mileage not by doing doubles, but by increasing the length of their runs too quickly).

If you keep your runs under an hour (except, of course, your long run) you are less likely to get injured. Think about it - 12 miles in 1.5 hrs on stressed legs or two 6 milers. You get the same miles. You get the many benefits of recovery time and the benefits of doubling up. Then as you increase your miles, it's easy to spread the extra work over the week.

If you're training for the marathon, you'll need to do longer runs. But I'd recommend building through doubles. Then do some med/long runs at steady state and then these can transfer into your workout/tempo runs in your marathon training.

Furthermore, if you look at Canova's athletes (the Kenyans) they rarely run longer than an hour on non workout days (except in the foundation period, but they have many miles and many doubles under their belts). They generally do 2x1hr runs at about 7 min AP.

Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with 'Waterlogged' - it's a reply to Jason D's post:) But to tie it into the original subject - of course, when you do your long runs, you have to decide whether to drink or not!

Many apologies Jake:)And now that I've opened a can of worms, I'll go do an easy 8 miles...

Man, there are some great thoughts in this discussion. We have some smart people on this blog... such a huge benefit for all of us to have these "virtual" discussions... without the Letsrun trolls!

Jason - the "it depends" idea is so true. There's no one size fits all formula for any of this stuff.

Bam - totally agree with your points on doubling (obviously!). I think after you do it for a while, recovery actually speeds up by running twice a day. Your body gets more efficient in responding and adapting. AdamRW could probably explain the science behind it - but I think John Kellogg said it best: "Why do you run doubles? Because it works."

I thought about chiming in but it is sometimes what works best for you. There is always a physiological explanation but it has to work with the mental too so that you keep up with it and like it. One thing that I found interesting is that the timing of lifting is key. The 15min warmup on the treadmill or any cardiovascular before resistance helps the muscles. It makes sense from the blood flow standpoint but there are other benefits as well. The twice, or more, a day workouts is good for repeatedly boosting the system. It is the same with work. If you have a desk job you should get up at least once an hour and walk down the hall. A number of studies show this little step helps improve health.