Going With The Flow

I'm not Teena but I think it is a spot on idea!!!! Oh I hope it works! :)

I love Zions! We should hit up notch peak sometime, if you want to? We would have a blast and the view is spectacular.

Lily - I have a question, and I hope you don't mind me asking. I've noticed that locally, a ton of people refer to Zion National Park as "Zions" with an "s". I've never heard that anywhere else when people are talking about the park. Is that just a local thing? I've been very curious about that.

I would like to go up Notch Peak sometime!!!

Great pictures. Looks like you had a great time and the weather was perfect. I used to always say "Zions" and still do unless I think about it. I am blaming it on Zions Bank.

I am with Fritz, I'm blaming this one on Zions Bank.

I'm unsure why some of us use the reference Zions. Bad habit? Utahonics? :)

The Zions Bank thing actually makes a lot of sense, and is probably the reason. Outside of Utah, there is no Zions Bank, and I've never heard it pluralized. Interesting.

In any case, nice 20x20 Andrea!

Andrea~

It's an interesting idea. Not sure I would suggest it since impact is directly correlated to velocity. However, every individual knows his/her body best. Just remember your strain over stress curve. :) In other words, if you are going to do that make sure you limit as much stress as possible with other things.

I think the process of trying to maintain full range of motion is a good one though. Only problem I see is that often times (most times) when muscles are under too much stress/strain they will tighten up to protect themselves. So a higher velocity could backfire.

Keep me up to date for sure!!! :) :) :)

Quick question: Any chance you know how many strides you take per minute during easy, moderate and hard miles?

Hmm...you are right. I will scratch this idea, but at least I got 1 mile at MP today :) Thanks for your input. I need an Alter-G!! My second idea was to stop running all together...only do ROM stuff and otherwise stop stressing at all for a few weeks. Obviously I didn't like this idea as much b/c of lack of exercise and the length of time it will take to see results/if it works or not. I have 8 weeks until 2013 - gotta get better by then!!

Approximate: Easy - 160, Moderate 165-170, Hard 170-180

Ideal stride length according to recent research is 180+ strides per minute. I will get you some articles but I need to head to class. We have lots to talk about. :)

(I.e., you can reduce your impact by shortening your stride. Look up the average Olympian's stride length during a marathon. :))

(Not length ... I meant strides per minute. :))

just yesterday i said "zions" to james using my best utah accent (zi-yonz) and his response was: "zions? like the bank?"

so...at least we are all on the same page here.

andrea: i've been constructing a b-day present for you that is designed to get you get you back to full health for 2013. just a couple more days...

I do agree that there is value in increasing strides per minute (especially if over-striding is suspected), but it is very dependent on speed. Check out these articles -

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/02/180-isnt-magic-number-stride-rate-and.html

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/11/speed-stride-length-x-stride-frequency.html

Last summer after my disasterous so joint injury, I shortened my strides and I really feel like that helped me heal and stay injury free till the saint George marathon.

Allie - I hope it's a clone of your hip!

Andrea~

With you I am more worried about joint overloading. Increasing your strides (decreasing the length) will absolutely help with this. My own opinion (take it for what it is worth) is that you would never want to have anything under 170 strides per minute when running. But, admittedly, I have not done extensive research on this (although I have done some).

Here are a few articles published by prominent medical journals that you may find interesting:

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/articles/PMC3022995

http://www.kaisersport.dk/files/documents/artikler/step%20frequency%20and%20lower%20extremity%20loading%20during%5B1%5D.pdf

http://uwnmbl.engr.wisc.edu/pubs/JOSPT11_heiderscheit.pdf

Hope you are having a GREAT day!!! :) :) :)

Great point Teena. I'll take this to email now so we don't bombard with more emails :) But these articles are good info. for everyone!

Best of luck with your recovery! Do you count each stride you take, or do you just count for 20 or thirty seconds and multiply to get a 69 sec. Equivalent? Im curious to see what mine is...

I just count steps on one foot for 60s then multiply by 2. Too fast to count both feet without me getting confused!

You should keep the discussion on here because I am curious too :)

Sweet pics from Zion. Looks like you had an incredible time.

pool twirling. we have to make this an official sport.

btw...beautiful, beautiful pictures. my favorites are the ones with you catching sun on the rocks (just like my iguana used to do), jake's pushup, and the hot tub/ head.

the bright red leaves are stunning.

Cracking pictures. Talking of pictures: maybe you should look at some shots/film of yourself running - are you over-striding? If so, it's not too difficult to sort.

Allie - I once accidentally pulled an Iguana's tail off.

Bam - That's a good idea... we have a fancy camera that can shoot high-speed footage and everything. Sounds like a good project for an afternoon this week.

I've never seen you run and I definitely do not know as much about running as you do, but here has been my experience with stride length. Perhaps something that I write is helpful in sparking new ideas about possible causes or solutions or perhaps this is entirely irrelevant:

My right leg has some issues with it and I used to get pain in my hip, knee, hamstring, along with chronic posterior tibial tendonitis. I started running my easy runs barefoot or with minimal protection and I really focused on reducing any vibrations that I felt through that leg. My stride shortened and I found myself running around 180 to 185 strides per min. I put my normal shoes back on and by using the shorter stride and altering my posture to reduce the up and down bouncing motion between foot strikes the issues with my right leg have been significantly reduced.

Although this might not apply in your case, I think that many hamstring issues are likely caused by over striding and using the hamstring to pull the body forward - an action that is too strenuous for the little hamstring. A tight, compact running form like that of Tirunesh Dibaba seems ideal for protecting the legs while running.

And, of course it is entirely possible that I just typed a bunch of stuff that has nothing at all to do with your running situation. I don't want to come off sounding as if I think I'm a running guru and I know the solution. I hope that you can work past this and be back to kicking out those speedy times as soon as possible!

Jake filmed me running last year when I was in the best shape of my life...I can't say I really know what overstriding looks like, but you guys can let me know....granted, I may have changed my form since then but probably not. This is when I had the hamstring strain that I still have now. But I may have adjusted it to compensate I suppose to put me in the position I am today.

http://andreanorth.fastrunningblog.com/blog--AM-6-miles-8-50-pace-That-was-about/10-28-2011.html

Thanks for your input Ken. I am planning to work on keeping my stride rate high and prevent overstriding as much as possible when I can run.

Wait...I just realized that the hamstring I hurt last October was my left one. When did it change to my right hamstring?? Ughhhh...

I can't say that I really know what over striding looks like either. =) With the running experience that you and Jake have I'm sure that you'll quickly be able to sift through the different ideas and find the particular solution that is best for you.

Best of luck on your road to recovery! I'll bet it's just around the corner.

I wish I had something intelligent to add to this conversation, but I don't. You've got awesome people working on this for you.

All I can say about "Zions" is that I think I don't pluralize it, I think I use it more like a possessive, not that it makes it any better or more logical. Zion's National Park. Like Zion owns the park or something :) Maybe it is the bank and I'm just rationalizing my way out of it.

another theory: arches. canyonlands. zions.

bryces?

This has been a very interesting comment feed.

First of all Jake, I've never known Utahns to misuse "Zions" until now. I never even knew "Zion" existed when talking about the National Park:) I suspect if anyone ever told me they were going to Zion, I would have thought they we're talking about the promised land:) Somehow though, it does make sense to blame this all on Zions bank. Good call Fritz! Oh, and How about Noches? That sounds fun! Also, "pulled off the tail of an Iguana" hhhhahhhhaaaa!

As for steps per minute... I had a coach that was really into this. We use to run around the track listening to "Rockin Robin" over the speaker for it's 90 bpm quality. We were also encouraged to buy and run with electrical metronomes. I no longer run with it, but the beat is always my head it seems :-). I also know there are lists compiled of popular songs that are 90 or 180 beats per minute. I think there is some truth to it, especially considering the force toll to one's body when over striding. That being said, with an average cadence of 180, I still get injured :-) So many factors but an interesting concept, huh.

Well wishes to you from Bountiful Andrea. I don't know many people who try harder than you.

I am also interested in knowing what this birthday present from Allie will entail. Sounds very interesting.

Oh, a few more things...and sorry to comment on this feed like I own the place or something. One (more) unsolicited response coming up!

Rad - lol. I wonder if Zions bank owns Zion? I dare you to call up one of their branches and ask, just to double check. I would even go as far as to accuse them of it. Just then, we may have some real answers.

Ken- Interesting experience. I would say that is, for the most part, precisely what my running evaluator at the U sports clinic mentioned to me as well about my hamstring+ issues. It's like you were there with me :-)

We're all rooting for you Andrea, to find what ever answers work and make sense for you!!

I think it's important to run with what feels natural. I've played around with my stride in training and have actually had others injuries show up when tinkering with stride frequency. Now I think about what feels natural. My stride frequency is low ~ 165-170. When I've gone up to higher frequencies I find myself trying to force the legs to do something that isn't natural. The stride frequency and length you use for racing is the "natural" stride you should use for training. For the majority of my race my stride rate is in that slower range, but when it comes down to the final laps my stride frequency becomes faster and longer. I'm using the muscles in a different way than I did for most of the race, so my legs feel fresh and not over used allowing me to kick it into another gear at the end.

Distance training is great for stabilizing muscles and builds endurance, it can also be used for strength by doing hills and hard repeats...but it can wear down your ligaments and tendons down if you do too much.

By weight training you can combat the breakdown that occurs with high miles (which obviously are essential for specific endurance) by creating very strong hamstrings, quads, and hips you will have the strength to move the legs more efficiently and avoid tendons and ligaments doing the brunt of the work when the muscles breadown. Injuries are caused by a weak link in the chain, eventually a hamstring will tear if it's too weak to keep up with the amount of work you're giving it, keep a focus on strength training and you'll stay healthy.

With all of that said, in college we lifted 3 times a week and did a variation of reps from week to week (doing 3-4 sets x 5 reps, 3-4 sets x 8 reps, and 3-4 sets x 10 reps) The closer we got to championship races the lower the reps and the heavier the weights to develop power for finishing races! We did power cleans, bench press, and single leg squats, as our main exercises w/lots of functional core exercises. Not something necessarily needed for a marathoner, but it also led to efficiency taking less effort to run all the steps in a race. Strength training is overlooked by runners because it's believed it will add mass and it's not specific enough to replace with more running.

The amount of mass it will add is very little to none when running solid miles and the injury prevention and efficiency gains will make you a better runner and over all athlete.

Great post Hamdog. Just to add to it - you will not put on bulk if you're doing endurance work. If, however, you are not doing some sort of endurance work, there may be some anabolic adaptations, but nothing too serious.

The big problem with weights is that most people lift with poor technique and this puts added stress on ligaments and tendons - squats and bench press are perfect examples of where most people show poor technique.

If weights don't appeal, then there are other ways to increase strength and recruit fibres. But that's a whole different story.

This turned into a great discussion. Lots of good thoughts here worth bookmarking.

Bam - I agree about using proper form. It's really important not to go heavy until form is learned. A good personal trainer or strength coach is worth the investment. You're right about alternatives to weights. I used a lot of Coach Jay's http://www.flotrack.org/video/334927-Coach-Jay-Myrtl-Routine

body weight exercise routines, for range of motion, and stability work last Winter and I had a great Spring racing season. I did a mix of his routines 4-5 times a week for 20-30 minutes during my lunch breaks for about 3 months.