Marathon Training At Race Pace

[Jeff Linger]

I got 15.5 miles out of 19.5 in at marathon race pace today. Averaged 6:49s over the 15.5. Splits were pretty consistant with the first 7 right at race pace and the last 8 between 5 and 10 seconds/mile faster. My goal pace is 6:52s. My question is this. With a little over 4 weeks to go, and a long run in today, I was planning on doing 1 more run over 20 miles and hitting probably 2 or 3 in the 16-18 range. Do you think its important to get in more than 15.5 miles at race pace going into Boston? Is this a long enough run at race pace? Would I be spending my time more beneficially working on some 10 mile tempo runs instead? I'm upping my intensity and planning on hitting at least 1 day/week doing work in the 10k race pace range and 1 day/week on tempo's. Overall, my volume will begin to decrease slightly as the intensity increases. I guess, what I'm really wanting to know from some of the elites out there is what sorts of workouts (be somewhat specific please) do you do 1 month out to sharpen.

[Jon Allen]

Personally, I think you guys are good without another 15-20 mile tempo at marathon pace.  They aren't easy, esp the 20 miler (if you thought it was easy, maybe you should decrease your goal time).  One 20 miler 3 weeks out is reasonable, and you can do a progressive tempo on it if you want, where maybe your last 5-7 miles at race pace.  Then a 14-18 miler 2 weeks out, depending on how you feel.  Err on the short side, esp. if sore or tired.  Jeff, when is you 1/2 marathon scheduled for?  3 weeks out is good, 2 weeks may be a bit close.

Just my opinion.  As you get closer, shorter workouts with the same intensity are what works for me.  Rule of thumb is it takes one day per mile to recover, though that may be a bit conservative.

[Jeff Linger]

Its a full, not a half. Boston, April 20th. Trying to crack 3 hours. No, the 15.5 was not easy today, but at the same time, I was never at the point where I was saying, this is too much, I can't handle this pace, or I can't imagine keeping this up for the full distance. Having said that, I thought I was running a touch faster than I actually was. I thought I was a good 10-15 seconds/mile faster overall. If I had known I was only actually 3 seconds/mile faster ... I dunno, you know how head games get, perhaps if I had known that I might have begun to get that ... 'i'll never be able to hold this for 26.2' feeling. On another note, last year I believe I went into my spring marathon overtrained. I did something like 6 or 7 runs in the 18-22 range at race pace on 6 or 7 consecutive Saturdays before beginning taper. I want to be sharp, but fresh for this one. I'm inclined to get a 22 miler in at a comfortable 7:15 pace or so and do a couple 16-18 milers with 1/3 at 30 seconds/mile slower than race pace, 1/3 at race pace, and 1/3 at faster than race pace (or 3 mile warm up, 5k at 10k race pace, 4 x 1 repeats at race pace, 5k at 10k race pace, 3 mile cool down .... that sort of stuff, where I get the miles in, but broken up into segments that are much faster than race pace and much slower than race pace). I just know that those 15-20 milers at race pace can be not only physically exhausting, but ... if one has trouble maintaining pace, they can be mentally exhausting as well as confidence shattering.

[Jon Allen]

Sorry, I misread- it was Allie who is considering the half in the next few weeks... I know both of you are running a full next month. 

[Sasha Pachev]

Jack Daniels recommends no more than 15 at race pace. I have followed his advice for years on that. However, now I am beginning to wonder if he is right. In most of my marathons I lose it around 15, settle into a more comfortable pace, and coast to the finish. However, on the other hand I've tried running full 26.2 with the first 16 at a brisk aerobic run pace (6:30 - 6:40 for me), and then a hard finish for the last 10 (keep it sub-6:00). That done weekly resulted in feeling stale in the tempos after 3 weeks, and I still crashed around 15 the same way in the marathons.

What is interesting - 16 miles at 6:30 pace would make it very difficult to run sub-6:00 for the last 10. I would have had a much more pleasant experience warming up 2 at 6:30, then 10 at sub-6:00, then 14 at 6:30 to the finish. I suspect I have something that slows me down towards the end that is not fuel related, and it cannot be overcome by just running hard longer.

Jeff - in your situation I would lean towards 10 mile tempos. They are reasonably effective, and a lot safer.

Allie - probably the same, even more so. You are not prone to just blowing up. Your problem is quite the opposite. You are afraid to go out hard enough. So a shorter tempo would be helpful as a rule.

[Dallen]

I like to do a half marathon 3-5 weeks before the marathon as a good tempo run. I'll do about 7 miles of warm-up and then try to run the half at marathon pace. I think this gives a good simulation of race day.

My guess is that if you can do more than 13-15 miles at race pace in training, you probably need to adjust your goal. Also, if you are doing super long tempo runs you might just be doing your best run before race day.

[Jeff Linger]

Some interesting feedback there.

Sasha, you suggest 10 at tempo pace. If I'm going for 6:52s, what would you consider tempo pace for those 10 to be?

Dallen, what is a super long tempo run? Why do you think race pace needs to be adjusted if one can hit goal race pace for 15 in training?

[Dallen]

Dallen, what is a super long tempo run? Why do you think race pace needs to be adjusted if one can hit goal race pace for 15 in training?

The traditional definition of a tempo run is a sustained run at 15K to half marathon pace. However, I think that we are all calling marathon pace runs "tempo runs" on this thread. I would say anything over 10 miles is a long tempo run (marathon pace). Anything over 15 miles is really long. I don't think that a person should be able to sustain more than 15 miles at this pace in training because that should be doing it untapered, without race day excitement and aid, and likely alone. If they do sustain this effort, it should be a thouroughly exhausting workout. If it's not that hard, I'm sure you could do better on race day with an appropriate taper and other race day conditions.

 

[Jeff Linger]

Dallen, what is a super long tempo run? Why do you think race pace needs to be adjusted if one can hit goal race pace for 15 in training?

The traditional definition of a tempo run is a sustained run at 15K to half marathon pace. However, I think that we are all calling marathon pace runs "tempo runs" on this thread. I would say anything over 10 miles is a long tempo run (marathon pace). Anything over 15 miles is really long.

Yeah, just wanted to see if we were on different pages or not. I don't consider marathon pace to be tempo pace. In fact, for the most part, or I should say, for most of the race, marathon pace is work done above both the aerobic and lactic threshholds. Tempo pace is work done below either the aerobic threshhold, the lactic threshhold, or both.I would say that 10 miles at tempo (15k-1/2M) is a long tempo run. I don't think I'd ever do a 'tempo' run over that kind of mileage, but I think its important to get a few runs in at m-pace in the 15-18 mile range.

[Sasha Pachev]

Jeff:

At this point I would not worry too much about precision with pace. In fact, if Garmin is your source of distance measurement, I would not worry about precision at any point.

Precision is important when you know exactly how fast your body is capable of running a marathon once trained, you know your training courses, they are marked very well, you understand the impact of the weather, etc. Then you should hit your target marathon pace equivalent on your course right on the dot, this trains your body to optimize fuel economy at that particular pace. This also programs your pace clock to run the right pace in the marathon. 5 seconds off pace, and you lose the benefits of the precision at this level. Still a good workout for expanding fuel storage, though. But once you are out of that precision zone it does not really matter how fast you run as long as it drops your muscle glycogen storage to the levels that encourage stockpiling.

So for those 10 mile tempos, just run comfortably hard by feel. Trust your body to know the right pace for the day and the terrain.