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Author Topic: Training for first marathon and BQ... need advice.  (Read 7398 times)
Kimberley A. Dion
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« on: April 10, 2010, 09:10:06 am »

Hi all... I have about 6 months until I run the Top of Utah Marathon 2010.  It will be my first marathon and my first attempt for a BQ.  I need a 3:50 to qualify.  I realize this is a bit of a lofty goal, but I am typically this way in about everything I do in my life ;-).  I have been religiously training and have only missed 2 scheduled runs since last August when I began running more seriously and training for my 1st half marathon which I ran this past December.  I have had only mild aches and pains.... a little bit of runner's knee that comes and goes and a touch of plantar fasciitis on my right foot which also comes and goes.  I feel a bit stuck right now in my training and feel like I need some advice.  What would you suggest I do for the next 6 months in my training?  I have been running 50-55 miles a week pretty consistently for the past few months until the last 2 weeks, where I have backed off just a little on mileage in hopes to get some more speed work in there.  I find with the more mileage that I do during the week, the less gusto I have to do any speed work.  The longest distance that I have run is a little more than 18 miles.  I find after about mile 14... it becomes borderline carnage for me.  I have improved a bit on my pace certainly since the half I ran in December, but I seem to be locked into 8:30's-8:40's min/mile which usually is comfortable to mildly uncomfortable for me for the most part (I think if I raced a half I could muster more).  However, the subsequent miles are extremely difficult for me to maintain that pace.  Is it stamina issue, cardio or am I just running too fast to begin with?  I am relatively a new runner... only been running for about 2 years. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated!!  I really want to get that BQ.  Thank you!!  Marathon Dreamer
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AndyBrowning
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 12:04:15 pm »

I recommend the book Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas.  Don't let the title scare you off.  I know a lot of people do not like canned plans but this book is a great resource for marathon training.  It provides good explanations of the different runs within a training plan and why you run them.  Taking a quick look at your blog, it looks like the mileage you run is consistent with their training plans. 
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Kimberley A. Dion
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 12:25:18 pm »

Thank you for your suggestion.... I will check it out!!  I guess what I am looking for is some advice to get me to reach that BQ.  I am wondering what I should concentrate on over the next 6 months in my training to get me there.  The training that I am doing now is based on just what I have read on line and in several forums.  I do understand the purpose of the different runs but I feel that I may be missing something or doing something wrong.  Maybe I just expect too much too soon?  If I continue doing what I am doing now... will I still progress or do I need to continue to up the mileage?
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AndyBrowning
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 12:48:51 pm »

There are training plans in the book that you can follow that I think will provide you with what you are looking for.  It is a good mix of long runs, tempo runs, VO2 max runs and recovery runs.  I suggested the book because it provides the structure that will help you peak at the right time.  Of course, the most important thing is running good, consistent mileage which you have been doing.  You are running 18+ milers faster than your goal marathon pace so I think you are definitely on the right track. It does appear that you are running faster miles too often which may explain why the last few miles of your long runs are harder.  Honestly, I think if you maintain what you are doing without getting injured you should be able to run TOU in 3:50.  Hopefully Jon and Sasha will jump in here and provide better advice.
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dave rockness
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 02:23:58 pm »

If you're averaging 8 miles per day, I'd do alot of the running at 9-10min pace.  Once or twice a week trying running at a faster pace and then run long on the weekend (I'd only do 18-milers every other weekend).  I wouldn't even touch "speedwork" until the mileage seems more managable.  Once 8-miles per/day gets easier go for 9-miles.  Once 9-10 min/pace seems easy, work up to 8-9min/pace.  With consistency, I think you'll surprise yourself over the next 6 months (assuming you keep a healthy diet). 
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 03:34:30 pm »

Kim- First, congrats on the some good running- only missing 2 days in 6 months is amazing.  And on signing up for TOU- it's a good race (I'm biased, since I live in Logan).  But I have to warn you that this may be a long reply. 

Andy and Dave gave some good advice.  I definitely agree with Dave that you shouldn't be afraid to do most of your runs at a slow pace- 1 to 2 min slower than marathon pace.  And like Andy says, the most important thing is to run consistent mileage, and to slowly keep increasing it if you can handle it.

I would not recommend cutting mileage at this point just to add speedwork.  For one thing, your marathon is still a long ways away, and mileage will help more than speedwork.  If you want to do a bit of speedwork, I would suggest doing a medium distance tempo (maybe do 5-6 miles at MP as part of a 10 mile run, then increase the tempo distance and run distance as you get better), but make sure to give yourself enough easy runs before and after.

2 other things I noticed that may help you.  First, I think part of the reason your long runs are ending terribly is cause you probably aren't fueling sufficiently (based on a few comments about "stopping for water" on your long run entries).  On runs over 1 hour, and especially 2 hours, you need to make sure you drink a fair amount and even take some calories (gatorade or gu or whatever).  This would be even more important in a hot, humid environment such as Mexico.  Stopping at a drinking fountain once or twice during a long run is not sufficient.  I would suggest either carrying a water bottle and drinking ~20 oz per hour, or stashing some bottles along the way.  Even very experienced marathoners start bonking around 2-2.5 hours if they aren't fueling.  Plus you need to practice this for TOU marathon.

The second thing that may help you is to stop racing your long runs!  It seems like you do ~1:50 for the first 13.1 of almost all your long runs, then fall apart.  Very few of your long runs should be at marathon pace- they should be slower.  Sometimes much slower.  It is more important to get in all the miles without dying than it is to push hard the first part, then limp home.  If you want to do a harder long run, then I would do the first 12 miles at a slow pace (9:30 min/miles or slower), then increase your pace for the last miles.  This will enable you to run farther and teach your legs to run fast at the end of a long run.  But I would suggest that you do some long runs WITHOUT a watch!  Run a known distance, but run relaxed and by feel rather than trying to break 1:50 each week (i.e. it worries me that you track your 13.1 splits each week).  I think your weekly very hard long runs are wearing you out!  Give yourself a time trial once a month (max) if you want, but stop trying to outdo yourself each week.  Just trust that you are getting fitter, don't try to prove it.  I would even suggest trying a run-walk cycle for your long runs- maybe run 8-9 min, walk 1-2, for the WHOLE run.  Including the first mile.  I guarantee you will run farther and faster at the end of your long run.  Remember- you only BQ if you finish the whole marathon in 3:50... they don't give you any awards for doing the first half of you marathon in 1:50 and the second half in 2:20! Grin

Just so you know, I rarely do many of my long runs (or any runs) at marathon pace.  Doing a long run with 13 miles at MP is hard enough that I only do it once or twice in a 4-6 month period.  Doing it every week is overkill.  For a 3:50 marathon, McMillian calculator says your long runs should be 9:17-10:17 pace, and your recovery runs should be 10:17-10:47.

As for TOU specific advice- Train on some downhills so your legs can take a pounding.  And do some of your long runs so the second half is on rolling terrain, like the TOU course.

This is a lot of advice, but you asked for it Wink.  Hopefully at least a little of it is helpful.  But I really think you can BQ, even in your first marathon.  Keep increasing the miles, fuel properly, and slow down on your long runs.  Best of luck!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 03:47:54 pm by Jon Allen » Logged
Kimberley A. Dion
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 04:14:46 pm »

You all are wonderful and thank each one of you for the advice... even lengthy comments are so appreciated especially when they are filled with sound and knowledgeable guidance!!  I am hopeful to reach my goal and I do think that I push it a tad too much expecting things to just "happen" without allowing my body to adjust to it all.  I will take all of your suggestions to heart and try them.  I do feel exhausted at times in my training yet I continue to keep going despite what my body tells me.  Lessons learned... I will continue to check this post for further comments as I like to hear the feedback and gain some knowledge in the training and marathoning experience Cheesy.  Regards!!
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 08:59:08 pm »

Kim- like you said, listen to your body.  It knows best.  And as for letting your body adjust- I would say it takes 1-2 months before you fully see the benefit of your training today, which is why running to hard all the time can be frustrating- you feel like you should be getting faster cause you're working so hard, but you just seem tired.  Relax, do the work, get enough recovery, and you'll be fine.
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Sasha Pachev
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 10:33:09 am »

Kim:

Looks like you are more than fit to run 3:50. A 3:50 marathoner would have already collapsed from your workouts. However, as John said, you have been pushing too hard on your long runs. I have also noticed that you are pushing too hard in general.

Here are some changes I would suggest that I think should go along with your personality and should still give you workout performance satisfaction without overtraining you:

First, some general philosophy. Think of yourself as a predatory animal, let's say a cheetah. He trots along at a leisurely pace, then he sees a prey and chases it down at 70 miles an hour. Most of your runs should be trots. I suppose it would be hard for you to go a day without chasing prey, so do that. At the end of your 8-10 mile run go one mile in 7:30. Just one. The rest of the miles you are just getting ready for the chase. Visualize scoping out the environment and sneaking up on the antelopes or whatever helps you.

On your long run, start with the last 3 at 8:00 pace. Again, the entire time you are getting ready to chase the antelope. So run maybe 9:20 pace and enjoy nature. But think about the chase and get ready for it. Over the next two months see if you can make that chase 5 miles long. I do not think you need to make it any longer than that. It is important that the chase happens at the end of your run once your body reaches a metabolic state of running very long. Then you practice how to run fast in that metabolic state, and you are developing sustainable speed. If you do it at the start, you are just working on your 10 K speed but it may not be sustainable past 10 miles in the marathon.

Otherwise, I think you are ready for a very solid marathon. The check has been written out, it is a matter of cashing it and not letting the thieves steal the money.
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Kimberley A. Dion
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 12:20:42 pm »

Thank you Sasha for your analogy!!  I loved it and it cracked me up!!  Grin You are very right and hit the nail on the head when it comes to how I am!!  I do push it...and often I think to myself that I'm not really running unless I'm a bit air hungry.  I will try out your suggestions.  I really didn't get why anyone would try to run fast at the end of their long run (especially when you are tired and spent at that point), but now I completely get it and see why it would be beneficial in training.  I am a bit surprised that you think that I am fit enough at this point to even be near that BQ time.  I still see myself with so far to go before I think I will be well prepared for the marathon.  Undecided  I look at those calculators and they never seem to put me at the time I need for my marathon finish.  I have also heard that Top of Utah being at a high elevation and a lot of downhill can be quite brutal.  Well, I guess we will see how I do over the next few months.  I worry about my training in the heat of summer here in Mazatlan, Mexico and Arizona when I return there in August.  Running in the early morning here in Mazatlan, I can only hope for temps in the 80's with humidity, or running in temps from 100-110 degrees in AZ...(although it's a "dry" heat), is going to be a huge challenge!!  I'll be ready to take it on - regardless!  Thanks again for all the advice!!!
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