Training for BQ at California International Marathon in December

[Tony]

I'm a little afraid to post this and get a total scolding, because I know this has been a pretty inconsistent training and perhaps even risky at times.

Little background:

I'm 28 and a pretty big health fanatic. Mostly vegetarian, Organic, all natural. Main intake are veggies and carbs. Very little sugar, no fast food, not a lot of fried food. Etc. Take my vitamins, omega 3.

Basically, I don't stick to a schedule or system (yes I know I should) I usually just run hard every time. But sometimes I go slower. I Try to get in a lot of hills, when I can, and the hotter the better. I like running in 95 - 100 degree heat..... it's fun and only a couple other people out (no jerks plowing through the trail on bikes kicking up dust)

I'm doing anywhere between 20 and 40 miles a week right now. I'm trying to get more in, but it's hard with full time work as a graphic designer and deadlines that don't care how many hours I've been in the office and I also weight train 2-3 days a week.  I went for a sub 6:00 mile last week, and almost had it,  but it was dark and I couldn't see my stop watch and thought I had the pace. Finished at 6:05, doh!  will make sure I do it next time.

Been running like this for about a year, but pushed up the intensity after my half marathon in March. Started doing 10 and 15 mile runs and have done one 20 miler. Yes... this was before I found out that you should not increase by more than 2 miles every other week. However, I was not getting any knee problems or injuries until I bought more expensive running shoes. Recently I also pushed my running up from 3 times a week to 5 times.This is a big question I have, and really can't figure out what is wrong. I was running in a pair of New Balance 540's and then went to a $30 pair of nikes. Both were great and I never had any problems with any part of my lower body while running in them. Then I got a pair of Nimbus 10's  and the knee pains started happening after about 3 weeks of running in them. I don't think I had increased any intensity in my training then. I switched back to my cheap nikes, and the pain went away. Got a pair of Pegasus about a month ago and at first they seemed fantastic, but then I started getting knee pain while running again about 3 weeks in. It got kinda bad too, to the point where I had to slow down considerably on the run. Went back to my $30 nikes, and it's mostly gone away, though still there a little but not even close to what happens with the Pegasus. I've documented it in my blog. I have also changed my stride and am going with a very small stride now, (even before changing this stride I was still hitting the midsole of my foot) it's worked great so far, both for a consistent speed with less effort and to not get any knee pain. I never got any sort of swelling after runs, and the knee pain is gone by the next day. I went to a sports doctor and told him what was up, he thinks it's probably the shoes. He said it's probably a little bit of inflamation behind my kneecap. He also thinks I should not run more than 2 days in a row at a time. Cool with me, if I can BQ on that schedule. He said I should ice my knees no matter what after each run.

One thing is the cheaper shoes I've ran in have been much stiffer, less cushioning and flexability. I'm guessing this is the reason? Anyone with experience here? Should I start going bare foot or what?!

So, right now, I'm able to run a half marathon in 1:32:46 and I had more in the tank after that too. I think I could have made it 1:29 no problem.  I'm running my first full marathon on Oct. 11th  and I plan on getting a 20 miler in this weekend.  After that, I plan on a 4 or 5 more 20 - 25 milers before CIM.

My goal is to BQ at the California International Marathon in Dec. I'm guessing I have a good shot. Do you guys have any recommendations? Any precautions anyone thinking "woooah dude, you're doing this all wrong" I appreciate all feedback, thanks!

Tony

http://jazzrun.fastrunningblog.com

[Dustin Ence]

Tony, first congrats on your recent races.  It also sounds like you have some good plans and some good goals.

As far as the knee problem, hopefully you can get that healed up.  With regards to shoes I don't know if you've ever been to a running store or not, but most of the time the people that work at these types of stores have a lot better idea of what kind of shoe is going to work best for your gait.  By making a few observations, most of the time they can get you in a shoe that should help you not hurt you.

As far as training, this blog is a great place to ask people for advice and get feedback on different training plans.  I've been a member on here for quite some time and have learned a lot, by just looking at different people's training and reading their race reports.  I take things that I like and then try to make them work for me and my schedule.

One thing I've learned is there are numerous ways to train and numerous ways to get faster.  With regards to qualifying for Boston, Sasha has posted an article and tips on training to qualify for Boston, it is a good read and he brings out some good points.

I think you have the desire, which is important.  Now you just need to find the time to train and become more consistent with your training.  A lot of runners on this blog have followed or adapted advice from the following website
http://www.therunzone.com/ntrz/?page_id=87

In my opinion, take it for what it is worth. I think if you could work up to 6-8 miles a day, with a longer run of 15-20 miles on the weekend you would be putting yourself in a good situation to qualify.  You said you've been running 20 to 40 miles a week.  If you could get closer to 40 to 50 miles a week I think it would really improve your running.  However, I do understand having a busy work schedule, family duties, other things that are probably bigger priorities.  It is fun to read some of the blogs on this site and see how some of these guys run lots of miles, while working full time jobs and raising kids.

Best of luck with everything

[Jon Allen]

Yes, Dustin gave lots of good advice.

If you have trouble finding enough time to run but really want to BQ, you may want to stop weightlifting and spend that time running instead.

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony:

The cause of the knee problem is most likely a combination of low mileage and high intensity. Here is how it is supposed to work:

The ultimate results come from high volume at high intensity. But the body is not able to absorb high volume at high intensity for a long long time until it is prepare to do so. So we start with the maximum volume it can handle at a low intensity. For a while we increase the volume. Until you are running 70 miles a week or so. Then we start increasing the intensity as well. Then we look at your strengths and weakness and decide if you will benefit more from extra volume or extra intensity. But it would be safe to say that without exception up to 70 miles a week everybody benefits from an increase in volume much more than increase in intensity. Which basically means that your average working man should be jogging at a comfortable pace for most of his runs.

A common mistake it to try to push the intensity off low volume. Problems with that:

a) Your body lacks the resilience and gets injured. Low intensity in high volume develops the resilience to not break down from high intensity.

b) Your body is not able to absorb the high intensity stimulus. The lack of aerobic fitness makes those high intensity workouts way in the red line zone. A training stimulus cannot be properly absorbed (resulting in increase in fitness) if it is too high.

c) Initially you are starting out with neuromuscular fitness being way ahead of aerobic. High intensity primarily targets the neuromuscular fitness. But you cannot use even what you have because of the lack of aerobic support. So on race day all that extra neuromuscular fitness does for you (if you manage to develop any at all) is make it easier for you to start out too fast, burn all of your fuel, and get into oxygen debt quicker. If your car cannot make through the trip on one tank of gas already then having a more powerful engine is no help. It means you will be driving  your car on solar power for the longer part of the trip. Remember - in the marathon you do not get to refuel your body like you do a car. Once you run out of gas, it is solar power only, so 30 mph instead of 70 or something like that.

So in practice I would recommend slowing down your pace and running the highest volume you can recover from and have time for. Get out 6 days a week, run the most you can so you still feel good enough to run the same distance the next day. A little longer before your day of rest.

[Tony]

Thanks Sasha, Dustin and Jon,

I really appreciate your advice and will follow it. I think I can probably work my way up to 70 miles at low intensity pretty easily given the amount of running I've already been doing, and the amount of time I've been running (5 years, though for the first 2 only about 6 miles a week).

What do you think would be a good pace? I can have a conversation while running and barely break a sweat at anything over 8:30/mile after 5 miles. I was also reading up on various causes of knee pain from running and such, and I'm wondering if the hill runs I was doing recently were the cause of it. I am going to buy another pair of the $30 nikes and alternate between that and the Pegasus and to see if I can eliminate the shoe as a factor. (And Dustin- yes, I purchased the expensive shoes at a running shoe store where they checked my gait and measured me 3 different ways, etc.)

Thanks again, I really appreciate the blog and having this place as a resource. It's been very helpful.

Tony

[Dustin Ence]

Man that is a bummer about the expensive shoes and still not feeling good when you run in them.  I hope the cheaper ones work better. That would be great if you could work up to 70 miles a week.  As far as pace I do a lot of runs around 8 min pace or slower just depending on how I feel.  If you follow some of the tinman training advice, he says only run hard twice a week or two "big workouts" a week, and everything else is easy.  The longer run can even be easy or you can throw in some marathon pace miles in the middle of the run.

[Jon Allen]

Tony- a few studies have shown that more expensive shoes don't reduce injuries.  So if you find some cheap ones that work for you, but a few pair and keep using them.

Pace of run- the biggest mistake is running too fast every day.  You should not be getting worn down.  Conversational pace is a good goal, with occasional days a bit harder if you want and if you feel good.  Mileage is more important than pace.

[Tony]

Dustin, that sounds good I will see about doing a couple miles at marathon pace or so during the longer runs. Oh well about the shoes, they did fully refunded my money on the nimbus 10's ($120) so that was pretty cool. The Pegasus I've put on 120 miles on between that and the nimbus I've gotten almost a full pair of shoes running out of.

Jon - I totally believe it. The cheaper shoes I have are the Nike Compete. They seem to have a very similar design to the Pegasus but they have a much stiffer sole. The shape and outsole is all very similar though in design, both have very similar waffle tread designs and where the heel and midsole parts connect, it is very similar. I think It's a very good shoe, and pretty inexpensive compared to other shoes. I'm also thinking of getting some New Balance next time, always seemed to run well with them, but I've never ran more than a 10K in a pair. 

[Tony]

Well, just wanted to let you guys know I ran the Wine Country Marathon today, and I qualified for Boston (with 16 seconds to spare!!) almost 2 months ahead of my target marathon date, and on an unforgiving course. read at http://jazzrun.fastrunningblog.com

I did take advice and increased my mileage and tried to slow down a bit, but I was also going hard, because my body could handle it, after getting the right pair of shoes again.  So either i'm an anomaly, or I'm in much better shape and higher endurance level than my original post led you guys to believe.

Also, training in 95 - 100+ degree heat is a huge factor that I can't stress enough how beneficial it is. If you can handle it (take TONS of water with you) you should get out in the middle of a 100 degree day and run 10 miles at least. If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. I believe this is because it conditions your body to work to it's extreme to cool you down and increasing it's energy reservoir in the process  to do that. When you run in the cool weather, you still have that reservoir but not using it as much for cooling down, so you it can get put into your muscles.

Sasha - hate to say it, but the knee problems were absolutely being caused by more expensive running shoes that were fitted by running experts, not by over training..... not sure what the deal here is, but my guess is the cushioning and flexability of the more expensive shoes, is actually not good for my knees. The stability provided by a cheaper, less cushioned and stiffer shoe makes all the difference for me it seems.

Anyways, reached my goal early, now I can enjoy all my marathons after this. I guess running a sub 3:00 marathon will be nice, but I'm in no rush to do that.

8 months ago I didn't even plan on running a marathon, let alone qualifying for Boston. Was a great day.

[Traci]

Congrats on your BQ!!! That is awesome! I thought I'd let you know that I have been listening to the book "Born to Run" on my long runs the past few weeks and it has a whole section in it about how more expensive shoes actually cause more injuries. According to the book, this is because all the cushioning keeps you from adjusting your stride properly and allows you to run with poor form. The more the shoe tries to correct your form, the worse it is. I don't know a thing about barefoot running, but I understand that this is one of the major reasons that some people advocate running barefoot. I am currently having a lot of difficulty with foot pain and I am thinking about trying the cheap shoe route. You should read the book. It is very interesting.

[Tony]

Thanks Traci!

I have heard of that book and an interview with the author. I also heard about the more expensive shoe problem. It really seems to make perfect sense. I ran in brand new shoes for my marathon, only had about 10 miles on them. I was a little worried that they might cause pain because they weren't really broken in, but they were fine. I think it just goes to show that we really don't need all the fancy stuff on shoes. A little cushioning, and we're good. If the Romans could conquer half the world in whatever they wore, I'm sure we'll be fine with a basic running shoe.

Go the cheap shoe route, I highly recommend it. Find what works best for you, for me, it's a stiff sole for stability for my knees. Also, make sure your stride is small. Do not try to take large steps. I think the majority of running pain in knees and legs can be minimized by shortening your stride. And it will not effect your ability to run faster or longer, infact you will probably run more efficiently, at least I have.

Good luck with your marathon btw! I think you should listen to Sasha and Jon, but also listen to your body, I prefer resting every two days, and going high mileage on the weekend. But I had been running about 10-15 miles a week for the last 3 years prior to stepping up my intensity, so my body handled the ultra runs. I would not recommend my method for everyone.

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony - note that a young man in his 20s is usually pretty resilient. It takes extreme stupidity to get him injured, and he bounces back pretty fast. A woman that is old enough to have had three children is usually not as resilient.

[Traci]

Thanks Tony. I do take short strides....I guess I have a shuffle stride. I run slow. It is probably the saving grace that has kept me from getting injured while increasing my mileage so much. I'm glad to here I'm not the only person that has trained for a marathon without following every rule in the book.

And by the way, Sasha, I am old enough to have had 4 kids (ages 7, 6, 3, and 1) and am still pretty resilient!