Running in the winter months.

[Tony]

Hi everyone, just wanted to get some input.

This is the first year that I have done serious running in the colder winter months (ok, cold for me is like 30 degrees, not 0 degrees like in Utah) But anyways, I've noticed a few things. First, my energy levels are considerably lower since the loss of sunlight during the day from both less sun and more clouds. I'm taking vitamin D supplements, but it's not the same thing. During the summer I could go all day in the sun and heat. (well not all day, but easily 2 or 3 hours without a stop)

Second thing is my joints and the cold. I ran my 2nd marathon on Dec. 2 in Sacramento (CIM) and it was 31 degrees and a strong headwind nearly the whole way... I finished with 3:15- 5 minutes off my first marathon time back in October. But I noticed a few things different. One, at the end when I tried to turn up the speed for the final stretch, my legs were very cold and I could tell I was in danger of pulling a muscle. So I didn't do that. Also my knees just don't stay warm, and the joints do not like it. I started running 5 days after the marathon. I did 8 miles that day and was pretty good. Then I ran 11 miles 3 days later. and my knees were a little unhappy with that, they were getting a pain similar to the ones behind my knee cap on on the outside that I got from the running shoes back in the summer. This happened at the end  when I decided to speed up a little to finish off the run strongly. My knees were also very very cold when I did this.

Yesterday I did 14.5 miles. With no uphills and at an 8:15/mi pace. by mile 12 my right knee was getting that achiness, and my lower right leg was very sore. Again, my legs and knees were extremely cold. I figured it was the cold. but the ache in my knee cap did not go away that night, and it's still with me a little this morning. This never happened in the summer, even when I was wearing those shoes that caused knee pain. The pain went away after the run.

So, basically, I'm just wondering, does this happen to anyone else? Is it primarily the cold that is doing this? Is it making my joints less flexible and getting irritated? I just can't imagine that after running so heavily during the summer, that only 20 miles a week and my relatively short long runs I've all of a sudden developed a knee problem unrelated to the winter elements.

If this continues I am going to give up serious marathon training each winter, and keep my runs below 8 miles and easily paced, just to stay in shape. Not to train. Does anyone else do that? I'm definitely not running any cold weather marathons ever again (except Boston). That 31 degrees over 26 miles at CIM was ridiculous. Who had the brilliant idea to start a marathon in the Sierra Nevada Foothills at 7am in December? By the way, CIM is not all that easily like it's advertised. There are lots of hills, they aren't fun, and and the wind is a drag.... it's usually not 31 degrees, but still, not fun, and not easy.
 

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony:

I think there are several issues going on. If you are underdressed, the knees can freeze, and it is normal to experience what you are describing. It has happened to me on numerous occasions.

You also have run two marathons fairly close together without a whole lot of preparation. So there should be some fallout from that.

If you do 20 miles a week, and it includes a run that is longer than 10 miles, there will be problems due to a spike in training load.

Corrective actions I would recommend. Make sure to wear pants. If that does not help, wear two pairs of pants. Keep your knees warm. Stabilize your mileage with a more even distribution. Run six days a week, half the distance of your long run on the normal five days, then the long run before the day of rest. Some variations of this schedule are possible, but if they are too big the training becomes less optimal. Do not be in a hurry to get ready for another race. Your body needs 3-4 months, if not more, of solid recovery. So just jog and enjoy it.

[Tony]

Thanks Sasha, that sounds like a good plan. I'm going to go buy some running pants this week. Do you have any recommendations? I see some on eBay but they look kinda bulky. And I don't know how well the really tight ones will work either. Do you just go with a regular running/workout pant?

I will be going easy on the running this winter though I am going to be running Boston in April so I should get a couple of 20 milers in before it. But there will be a little under 4 months to work up to that. Should be enough time. Thanks once again for your advice and input!

[Jon Allen]

Tony- any running pant/tight from a brand name company (Under armour, Nike, Brooks, etc) should work fine.  I wear Sporthill XC Pant, which keeps me warm below 0.  Pricey, but worth it.  I've had the same pair for 7 years, and they show no signs of wearing out.

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony:

One of the most common causes of injury or other form of trouble is when a runner allows himself to feel the pressure to run a certain race and do well in it that he really should not be running. I am guilty of that myself. Last year I foolishly ran a 10 K race in bad weather while starting to get sick. This resulted in an ear infection that lasted a month.

Do not be afraid to back out of a race if you are not ready even if it is Boston. Remember that there will always be another race.

[April G]

Tony--I am a runner on a budget, and a pair of $15 champion tights from target with another $10 pair of cheap sport pants over top has gotten me through -4 degrees so far this winter and my legs were warm enough.  Still, I have found that I, for one, need to slow down when the weather gets below about 20 degrees because my legs and joints just seem a little stiff in the cold.

[Sasha Pachev]

I would second April's train of thought. Pants are pants, socks are socks, and gloves are gloves. Businesses today like to charge us for the perception of value. They have realized that the perception of value is easy to inflate while the value itself is what it is and can only go up through hard honest work and inspired creativity. Thus investing in the perception of value has much higher returns than investing in the value itself. So they sell us things that should cost only $10 for $100 for the simple reason that we are stupid enough to pay that much for things that are packaged and advertised just right.

With that understanding I shop like this. Keep an eye for the product "with no apparent beauty". Look for a company that does not have flashy ads. Look for ads/product descriptions that apologize for the shortcomings of the product. Then you pay only $10 for what should cost only $10.

[Kory Wheatley]

The $49.00 for UnderArmour tights is well worth the cost.  I never have to worry about getting cold in those areas.

[Tony]

Thanks everyone for your advice. I got some pants, ugh, $70 NB ones. They are very nice, got them at fleet feet. So expensive there, but they are a good store and They are good people. There's probably no other place in town that sells running pants. I looked online... plenty of excellent pants in the $20 - $30 range. Oh well.

About the knee: I tried to go for a run about a week and a half ago with the pants on. I stayed very warm, and kept the pace almost very slow, probably in the 8:30 - 9:00 range. Barely faster than a jog. Knee started getting irritated at about 4. I started walking, it went away, started running, came back, walked, ran the last 2 miles. It's definitely not the cold. Sasha, you are correct, I overdid it after the last marathon.

Couple of things - The pain is all around the kneecap and behind it and mostly on the right hand side, and all on my right leg. My left is fine.  It does not swell up at all, so I am not sure if icing it would really help. Icing seems to make it ache afterwards anyways. The pain mostly goes away as soon I stop running. When I get home and take a got shower it seemed to loosen it up and feel good in the shower, then when I get out and they cool down, they ache a little. They have ached the next day also (I've had this problem after 3 runs and they ached the next day after each one) It also feels waaaay better running on soft surfaces than the concrete/asphalt, which I have been doing a lot of lately.

My guess is that is' Runner's Knee. I've been recommended by friends that are also runners to just rest, stay off it for a good month or so, which I am doing... and hating. I also was recommended an herb called Yerba Santa that is good for inflammation and recommended to my by an ultramarathon runner.

My knee joints crack a lot, but there is no pain. They had been cracking for a while though, since before the first marathon I ran. They crack mostly when I twist my leg and my knee joint twists. Not sure if this is a bad thing to be doing, but again, don't get any pain or anything from it, and no swelling.

I'm still hoping to be able to train for boston and if I have to, run it at a very slow pace. I'm going to start off in 2 weeks with short runs, 2 miles to start, then up it every week and be able to get a 15 - 18 miler in 2 weeks before Boston. It will be a fast track recovery/training, but I think as long as the knee doesn't flare up in the first couple weeks of coming back, I should be good. And then it's very light recovery running till summer, and then the intense training for the wine country marathon in October. 

Thanks for all your insight, everyone.

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony:

Here is what I would do. Jog 4 miles a day or however far you can go without aggravating the knee. Slow pace. Ride a bike or do elliptical (whichever you feel is better for the knee) for the balance of your energy. Approach Boston as a long training run. It does not do as much damage to jog 26 miles as it does to race it. Especially if you race 18, and are forced into a jog in the last 8. And you may actually end up with a faster time as a bonus. I've seen way too many people that go to Boston with ambitions, too many ambitions, and come back with a time they could have easily achieved if they shot for that time from the start.

[Tony]

Sasha, thanks for your input really appreciate it.

Do you think it would be ok to start jogging now? I was planning on not jogging for for 4 weeks, and then coming back slowly. I am just concerned that this is an injury that any sort of activity will be bad for it. But I am able to walk on it fine, jump, lift weights,  etc. I did some leg presses tonight with no problem, though it did feel like something was different, but perhaps that was my imagination. I am wondering at this point if my own mind could be affecting this as well. Perhaps I forgot that even when I was not experiencing this pain, I still had different aches and sensations in my knees, and because it didn't hinder anything, I just ignored it. The mind and running can be a trippy combination.

As far as Boston goes, what you said is my plan. I really really do not want to miss it and even if I am able to race with minimal pain, I am prepared to come in after the 4 hour mark. In fact, I was planning on running it at a very mellow pace even if I wasn't experiencing this pain. I want to be able to experience a marathon and enjoy myself in it. Both marathons I was running at my max, and was not enjoying it. I dunno why I ran so hard in the 2nd one. I really didn't plan on it, but then I felt like because I had already ran a 3:10, I needed to come better than that... always improve. And now I'm definitely paying the price.

Anyways, I feel that right now, I can go 3 miles at a light job without experiencing any pain. Do you feel that if that stays the same, I will slowly be able to increase mileage and the running will temper it without a problem? I suppose I should start jogging slowly now just to make sure it hasn't gotten any worse incase something serious happened, and the sooner I can determine it is a real injury and not a result of overuse, the better.

[Sasha Pachev]

Tony:

See the top thread on the Running Injuries board. The idea is that when injured you run as far as you can without making it worse. The body eventually heals itself.

[Joe Furse]

I second the idea of cheapie tights from Walmart or wherever.  As for the upper body, I just layer up with all my technical shirts from races and stuff.  I can do below zero pretty easy with a knock off version of an Underarmor top, one long sleeve technical and a short sleeve technical on top.  Decent gloves are a must.  I got a decent pair of asics gloves for pretty cheap once (can't remember how much) and they were worth every penny.  They even came with a cotton terry section on the thumb for wiping your nose which is super handy.  I use them all the time even when I'm not running.  Also make sure to keep your head warm.  Up to 50% of heat loss occurs through the head.  Conservation of heat dictates that this means that any heat lost from your head has to come from some other part of your body...i.e. feet, legs, arms, and hands.  Keeping legs warm is tied to keeping your core warm, so making sure your upper body is warm will help.

As for the knee, it sounds like it could be bursitis or something, although I'm not an expert at all.  My favorite thing is the ice tub.  After a race/marathon or a particularly grueling day of training I like to mix about a 1 part ice cubes to 2 parts water mixture in my bathtub and then sit in it up to my waist for around 15 minutes but no more than 20 or so.  Then if you're really ambitious let it drain and replace with water as hot (warm) as you can stand and soak in that for awhile.  I'm telling you it works miracles for recovery and general muscle pain.  For more specific injuries near the surface or over bony areas like your knee a technique called ice friction is sometimes very useful.  Get a paper cup of water, freeze it, and take the ice and rub it in a circular motion over the affected area for 10 minutes.  It works much faster than the conventional ice bucket and is useful in areas that are normally hard to put in ice.