Provo Half

[adam]

Anybody from the blog planning on doing this one?

It's a decent course (last year was windy), well run, and this year it has some course adjustments (still USATF cert). The overpass hill at the 12 mile mark is now at the half mile mark instead, so that's cool too.

I'll be there. I'm looking at about 1:20, if I can get over this fever and get some more miles in.

[Jeffrey McClellan]

As far as I know right now our entire little group that runs here in Provo will be doing it.  I think that Seth Wold is planning on running it as well.

[adam]

This is the Run13 Provo Half-Marathon on April 4th, not the provo half that goes on the river trail during the summer. Just so there's not any confusion.

Jeff, that will be a good group. I thought you weren't running it since the marathon is so close?

[Jeffrey McClellan]

I changed my mind.  I decided that 2 weeks is enough as long as I taper a bit more than I have in the past.  For example, with St. George last year I tapered for less than a week and a half, but I didn't run hard leading up to the marathon (the previous month or so).  This time I think I am going to race and then just really take it easy for 2 weeks.

[Michelle Lowry]

Jeff, I wouldn't race the 1/2 2 weeks out from a marathon.  More like a long tempo?

[Sasha Pachev]

I told Jeff that if racing a half untapered two weeks out affects the marathon, one is not ready for the marathon. When you are properly trained, two weeks of taper should be sufficient to recover from an all out half. One exception is if you can run the half really fast, e.g under 1:02, then because you are going so fast for so long the recovery might take longer, but Jeff is not there yet.

[adam]

Recover, yes...but be prepared to all out race for the goal marathon, I'm not so sure. Any number of things can pop up in a long race that show up later in the big race.

Sasha, I remember you did this 2 weeks prior to a marathon last year (14 or 15 mile run along the course) where you went through the half in 1:12 or so...but then during the marathon had issues (whether residual or not) and ran much slower than anticipated. I don't remember what other factors came into play (calf issues?), I'm just remembering this similar situation. There is obviously a reason you believe it this close is beneficial, I just would like to know what that is.

If your all bent on doing it untapered, I'd run a 10-15k or 10mile race @ pace or slightly faster as kind of a dress rehearsal or do the half at tempo pace like michelle said. I'd look for something I could walk away from, feeling ready to roll, with low risk for agitating little strains into annoying pains and high confidence for the race ahead. This shouldn't be a significant race if the real race is two weeks later. If the goal race is 6 months down the road...or if you feel that you could race completely well in both events with no issue, then do whatever you want.

[Sasha Pachev]

The issues were completely unrelated to the tempo run on the course. It was a cramped calf from a midnight Charlie horse during the taper. I've actually had several of those while tapering before, except they did not affect the race.

For a comparison, I've PR'ed in marathons 2 weeks apart, and I've also had many experiences when I would key for Top of Utah treating St. George as a fun eat-the-leftovers marathon, and then I would have a better quality performance in St. George.

So when you fail in a marathon, a half or longer race or tempo run two weeks out becomes an easy scapegoat. But the truth of the matter is that people blow up in marathons for many different reasons, with or without running hard close to the race.

My opinion is that when you are fit and healthy, few things can upset you. You can run an all out marathon the day before, and only lose 3 minutes in the marathon the next day. When you are not, a hard 3 mile tempo run a month out could make you crash at mile 20 and lose 7 minutes. In other words, when you blow up, do not look for answers in one particular workout supposedly done wrong.  Look for systematic failures - bad diet, bad sleep, too much stress, low mileage, skipped runs, no long runs, no long tempos, overtraining, etc.

[adam]

I understand what you're saying now.

But, is there any other purpose in doing the half two weeks out, outside of racing to race?

[Sasha Pachev]

Dump the glycogen so it can replenish for the marathon as you taper.

[Adam R Wende]

Sasha, The data is still sketchy at best but old glycogen and new glycogen are processed very differently by the muscle. That being said two weeks may be enough time to build back "old glycogen". This was one of the findings of the initial carbo-loading follow-up studies. Yes carbo loading one two even three nights out from a goal race after a stripping phase could increase muscle glycogen content ~10%. However, 30 minutes or whatever timepoint the study looked at the glycogen levels were again even between loaded and unloaded athletes. The more recent data does stick with an 8 or more day loading phase that would fit with your two week plan. But, I think the bigger issue here isn't the fuel for Jeff but the other damage that occurs from doing an all out race. You don't find world class marathoners racing a 1/2 marathon 2 wks out from say Chicago, London, or Berlin...

[Sasha Pachev]

Adam:

Only because they do not have to. A sub-2:08 gets appearance fees sometimes with a clause not to race anything for a couple of months prior to the event. The ones that are slower and cannot get appearance fees race all kinds of stuff and do quite well. Probably the most notable example that I have personally witnessed (as in being whooped by him) was Elly Rono. In 2003 he ran New York in 2:11 taking 4th. Six days later he ran Richmond (that is when I raced him). He ran the first mile in 5:39, second in 5:25, third in 5:20, and then too fast for me to take his split in the 4th. 1:08 half way through, then closed with a 1:07 to finish in 2:15, a new course record. I have a feeling he could have gone faster, but the course record was all he needed.

I am 99% sure if there was decent money for 2:06 and then 2:06 again two weeks later you would see it happen quite often. Possibly not by Haile because even though he can run sub-2:04 it breaks him down too much, but by the guys that can only do 2:06 but are limited by their nervous system, so they have some muscle durability and do not need as much time to recover.

[Adam R Wende]

Sasha, All I can say is I wish I was one of those guys. We have examples here on the blog as well I guess. Between you Walter, Bill C. there are many people that can do great races very close together. I just always wonder that if in addition to the names listed above's ability to recover so quickly if there is limitations in PRs. Is it just that the 2:06 marathons can't run that 2:04 because they may be the kind of person to not give their bodies enough rest. Obviously I'm on the opposite extreme so it is harder for me to understand. Jeff knows his body and you know his training so I'm sure he will make the best decision for his body. I must admit that a portion of my comment is biased by the fact that I know my body breaks down and needs a lot of recovery or I get injured...