Pacing Question

[Scott]

Hello -

I am training for a marathon in May.  I have been working with a program for about 10 weeks (Advanced Marathoning).  I like the program and my fitness/times are improving.  My goal is to qualify for Boston and, by my calculations, it's going to be real tight.

Most of my training involves general aerobic runs, and medium to long runs.  I average about 60-65 miles per week.  On occassion, I will do a tempo run and some speed work.  I do these runs on a treadmill so I can really gauge my speed (it's been very windy here in Colorado recently). 

Yesterday, my running plan called for a 17 mile run, with 12 miles at race pace.  I thought I would see how I could handle doing more, so I set out with the goal to do all 17 miles at race pace.  My problem, and this has happened before, is that I start out way to fast.  I completed the first half of the run in one hour, which equates to 8.5 mph (and my goal is really 8.0 mph).  Coming back, I was very tired and even stopped a couple of times.  My time coming back was 1:02:55, which is still faster than my goal pace.

So (finally) does anyone have any suggestions on working with pacing?  It's obviously easy to do on a treadmill.  When I'm not doing a pace-run, I tend to run by feel and am normally close to where I think I should be (15-40 seconds off of race pace).  Like yesterday, when I do need to "step it up" I find that I go overboard.  Mentally, I prefer not to look at my watch every mile, but perhaps it's what I need to do.  I like to go 5 miles before doing a pace check (yet yesterday, it totally impacted me as I was running way too fast, too early).  Thoughts?

~Scott

[Dale]

I don't much care for track intervals, but if it's what I need to do to prep for a race I'll do it.

My point is, despite preferring to run by feel, obviously that didn't pan out so well on your 17-miler, so you do need to watch your pace earlier and more frequently.  The "glass half-full" view is that you bested your goal pace for the run, but the "glass half-empty" view is that you failed because you slowed in the second half and even had to stop.  If you're needing to stop in a 17 miler, the pace is way too fast for a 26.2 and you need to establish the good habit of pace control now while there is still time. 

Watch your pace early and make sure the first mile or two is nice and easy (even slower than your goal MP, since you're still warming up).  Once you're confident you've got the pace nailed, you can stop checking quite so frequently, but at least every mile is probably wise. 

You might also want to try a run where the first 10 miles is at your easy pace, the next 5 is at your goal MP, then the last 2 is as fast as possible to get you to the finish without stopping or slowing (aim for 10K pace).  They really help teach your body to exert itself when tired (i.e. near the end of your marathon).  Just a thought.

[Scott]

Thank you very much!  That is some great information and I appreciate it!  Historically, I have been doing negative splits on longer runs, so I need to have this carryover (vis a vis watching my pace more closely).

A final question - I run with a water bottle all the time (except treadmill work).  I've gotten used to it and I like it because I can have sips every so often.  Is it reasonable to run with it during a marathon?  I've done two marathons and just relied on the aid stations, but I think I get more via the water bottle route (and I never really like the slow down, paper cup, thing).  Thoughts?  Again, thanks very much for your last response!

[James Winzenz]

Another option for monitoring your pace is a GPS watch that provides you with both real-time pace as well as average pace.  I find that whenever I run without my Garmin (I have the 205), I end up running faster than I had anticipated.  Just another option to help monitor your pace.  I love my Garmin, I wear it for racing at any distance, and wore it last year to the St. George marathon.  The 205 is not all that expensive - 2 years ago, I got mine for about 140.  Amazon has it for 144.95 right now and I am sure there are better deals to be had.

[Nathan Bundy]

When I'm not doing a pace-run, I tend to run by feel and am normally close to where I think I should be (15-40 seconds off of race pace). 

I am assuming you meant per mile. If you think about the distance of a Marathon, 15-40 seconds off of pace can be huge and will kill you the second half! Even in a 10k if I tried to run 6:00 miles when I have been training for 6:30's, I will be able to hold it for the first 3-4 miles probably but then totally die the second half. The key to a successful marathon is pace! If you are shooting for a certain goal you are wasting all the effort building a base to reach that goal if you go out and run the first half of the marathon at half marathon pace.

[seesuerun]

Speaking of Garmins, I have a huge problem with pace as well. I am still working on that. My garmin 305 has a pace alert that can be set so that if you go too fast it will beep or if you go too slow it will beep with a different tone. When I am really trying for a PR in a race I use it. It can get a little obnoxious at times and I almost feel like I need to apologize to the people around me for all the beeping but it helps me a ton to keep my pace where I want it. I got mine on craiglist for less than 100. It was a birthday gift for someone and never even taken out of the box!

[Dale]

A final question - I run with a water bottle all the time (except treadmill work).  I've gotten used to it and I like it because I can have sips every so often.  Is it reasonable to run with it during a marathon?  I've done two marathons and just relied on the aid stations, but I think I get more via the water bottle route (and I never really like the slow down, paper cup, thing).  Thoughts?  Again, thanks very much for your last response!

I think the water bottle is a personal choice.  On one hand, if it helps you stay hydrated better than taking drinks at the aid stations do, then you're performance will likely be a bit better.  On the other hand, most people that race a marathon learn race-time drinking at aid stations and forgo the additional weight and balance issues of carrying your own bottles.  Aid station rehydration is like anything else in running....it requires practice.  I've gotten more water and gatorade up my nose at aid stations than I care to remember, but I'm better now than I was when I first started running races.  If you're serious about doing the best you possibly can, I'd plan on ditching the water bottles and practice cup based water/gatorade.  The best practice idea I've ever heard was putting a folding table with several cups of your rehydration beverage of choice on a loop/track for a long run and practicing.  Now if I just practiced what I preached, maybe I would get more liquid in my mouth and not up my nose....

[James Winzenz]

The best practice idea I've ever heard was putting a folding table with several cups of your rehydration beverage of choice on a loop/track for a long run and practicing.

I've actually done this before on a long run (out here in Arizona, proper hydration in the summer is critical!).  It actually worked pretty well.  I'll second that idea - if you have a track nearby, this would definitely be a good way to get used to the paper cup approach.

[Dallen]

If you are running too fast, you need to look at your watch more. After a while you will get a better feel for pace. As someone already said, if you start a marathon evel a little too fast, you will end up crashing at the end. It's not fun.

[Sasha Pachev]

Scott:

The problem is that your aerobic conditioning is still lacking. When you are in good shape it is impossible to start a marathon too fast. It just requires way too much concentration. The reason it is this way is that your fuel storage and aerobic capability is so high that you literally have to sprint to hit the right pace even for the distance as long as   the marathon. The marathon becomes just a very long 5 K - hurts like a 5 K, except it lasts about 8.5 times longer. However, when you are out of shape a pace that appears quite slow would not be sustainable for the marathon distance. The fix is to be patient and to continue to build your aerobic base.

I noticed that most days you run only 6 miles, yet your longer runs are 12-17 miles. If you can run that long and live, you should be able to handle 8 miles a day without too much problems. This should speed up your aerobic development.

Regarding pacing - even pacing is not always optimal pacing even for a high mileage runner. One example. I have raced the TOU marathon for the last 10 years every year. The natural difference due to the terrain between the first and the second half is about 2-3 minutes, the second half being slower. My times have varied from 2:27 to 2:39 and  my first half has varied from 1:10 to 1:16. What is interesting is that without exception the second half has been a function of the first, and not in the way you would think. The faster I ran the first, the faster I ran the second. My best time of 2:27:46 came with the first half in 1:10:31, the fastest first half of all tries. Second fastest time was 2:28:42 and the first half was also the second fastest - 1:10:57. My worst time of 2:39:12 came with the first half in a low 1:16, slowest first half. Second slowest time, 2:38:12 came with the first half of low 1:14. While being in sub-2:30 TOU shape (as evidenced by a performance in St. George in two weeks) I have tried backing off to 1:12-1:13 in the first half, and those attempts consistently produced 2:32-2:33 instead of a sub-2:30.

For one reason or another, I just cannot run a strong second half in the marathon even if I start slow. Apparently just running for an hour and a half is exhausting for me regardless of the pace and I can only do that much afterwards. At the same time, I can push it in the first, and slow down to a respectable pace in the second. I am not alone. There are a lot of world-class marathoners that typically positive-split by 2-3 minutes. For others negative splitting works better. You have to learn about your body which way works better.

[Scott]

Thank you very much for the information!  I really appreciate it.

I tend to disagree with certain aspects of your response.  Admittingly, I don't have your wealth of knowledge and will never come close to running times that you noted.   

As I'm actively training for a marathon, I have become faster over the last several months.  Running "race pace" several months ago had a certain feel (legs, chest, breathing, beat, etc.).  So, when I do try to run race pace now, my brain is telling me that's how it should be (those symptoms).  When in actuality, I'm running much faster than race pace because of the "feel" and how I "think" it should be.  That was the gist of my question.  I agree, increasing my aerobic conditioning will help me improve tremendously; how then do I adjust my running to reflect this improvement (so I can hit my goal pace and  not blow by it simply because I'm in better shape).  I hardly ever run race pace.  I either do slower runs or faster/tempo runs.  Today, I did a 15 miler in a faster than race pace time (and it felt comfortable).  Yesterday, I did 6 miles as a recovery run at a slow pace.  So, I'm normally above my "goal pace" or below it.

To a large degree, I feel we are working on two different planes.  It's much easier for me to better my time than it is for you to better your time.  Consider a golfer who shoots in the 100's.  It's easier for him to get down to 90, than an 80's player to get to the 70's.  It's basically the learning curve model.  So, you're right, your aerobic condition has to be 'X' to get you to the times you need/want to get to.  Conversely, there is more "play" in my aerobic conditioning as I'm in the upper scales.  Does that make sense?  I'm probably not typing it as well as I should.

Again, thanks for your response.  I've really enjoyed the site!!!