OTQ goal... NEED ADIVCE!

[allie]

training background:

i dug out my training log from last year at this time when i was training for boston, just to compare it to this year's training and analyze some things. it was a 15 week training cycle and my average weekly mileage came out to be 35.72. my time at boston was 3:21:48. then 4 weeks later i ran ogden in 3:13:XX on basically the same mileage. and from january to april i did not compete in any shorter distance races.

then i looked at my training for TOU 2008, which i only have 12 weeks of training logs recorded. this cycle i averaged 46.94 MPW and ran a 2:56:33. during this cycle i ran the desnews marathon and provo river 1/2.

the mileage above shows i really didn't know what i was doing. i want to figure out what i am doing for 09.

so now i am 3 weeks into my 2009 training (too many struggles in dec. and jan. to count as real running). so far my average mileage is 61.16 and i am planning on increasing it from here. also, i have raced a 5K and a 10K, with plans for a 15K, a 1/2, and two or three more 5Ks by early april.


so here are my questions:
-i want to run an OTQ time in 2010 or 2011. contemplating the best strategies for doing this...
-should i race the usual marathons this year and narrow my focus next year? or in 2011? or not at all?
- i was planning on the SLC marathon. i haven't registered yet. should i run this race?
- ogden is sold out. this was a race i was planning on for a PR. UV marathon as an alternative?
- where should i go from here mileage-wise? i am feeling good. my legs can tolerate 10 miles a day quite easily now.
- i have used a few different strategies in my marathon training and i still can't figure out the ideal...i.e. length of long runs, how many tempo workouts per week, when and how to include speed, etc....thoughts?
- is there anyone on this blog in the SLC area who is interested in doing some long runs with me? i am a solo runner but it would be awesome to have someone to do long runs with that could keep me going at a good pace.
- any thoughts are appreciated. i am trying to sort this all out instead of just running blindly through this racing season and neglecting important things. thanks everyone.

[Jon Allen]

I'm by no means an OTQ runner, so keep that in mind.  I do have a few thoughts/questions/comments on reading your post.

First, for wanting to be an elite runner, your mileage last year was extremely low- 35 and 47 mpw.  I would expect an OTQ to be at least 60-70 (which you indicate you will), or preferably 80-90 or more.  Since you can't qualify this year, just do whatever marathons you want and then focus on an OTQ next year, though I would question running both SLC and UV- 8 weeks apart is a bit close for many people, especially if you want to peak for both.

As for miles and workouts, I was converted last year to Paul Petersen's Tinman training cycle, which consists primarily of moderate to high mileage (I peaked at 98 miles), lots of two-a-days, and a concept known as Big Workouts.  Big Workouts are made to simulate the pounding and exhertion of a marathon.  They are 13-17 miles long and usually consist of a warmup, a few tempo miles, some speed portion (sometimes track workouts like 6x1 mile, 8x1200, sometimes 6-8 miles marathon pace tempo, etc), and a cooldown.  Very hard.  All other workouts are EASY EASY EASY, slow.  Usually 2 BW a week, lots of easy runs, and a long run (usually 18-23 miles).  Contact him if you want more details. 

You are smart to plan things out this year.  Last year I had a spreadsheet outlining every workout for the whole season.  It got modified a lot, of course, but it is a lot easier to get out and do a workout if something is written saying you have to do it.

[Paul Petersen]

- ogden is sold out. this was a race i was planning on for a PR. UV marathon as an alternative?

A race is never sold out to people like you. Just call or email the race directors, tell them that you won TOU, and that you plan to win Ogden. There is a very good chance that not only will they let you in, but will give you a comp entry. In fact, it would be wrong for them not to. This isn't specific to Ogden, but holds true for virtually any marathon that takes itself seriously and wants to assemble a strong field. Just a heads-up.

[Sasha Pachev]

Allie:

I have been watching your training and racing for a while. Here are my thoughts.

I was amazed at how well you managed to realize your 5 K speed in the Top of Utah marathon with the training you did. This could be both good and bad. Good because you handle the fuel issues naturally very well and it does not take you as much training as it would somebody else to run a good marathon. Bad because the 5 K speed is low enough that you can approach it so close in the marathon even off low mileage, the limit is in the pure leg strength. If that's the case, high mileage will not improve your marathon performance.

I think you could hit an OTQ on an approved course if you could get your 5 K to 18:30 on an honest course in Utah. If fact, I feel a measure of confidence saying that if you were to run 18:30 in Minuteman/Draper Days and you are putting it as little as 60 miles a week including long tempos barring a disaster or bad conditions you would qualify.

Thus the general direction of your training should be to do whatever it takes to bring the 5 K to 18:30 without killing your endurance/fuel economy/fuel capacity.

To know what kind of training you need for that, the big question is what exactly is keeping you away from 18:30. To discover I would suggest time trials in all distances from 100 meters to 2 miles. Post the results and we will go from there.

Also - another test. To be done on the track with an HRM. Run 90 second quarters until failure. Note the HR pattern on failure. Does it go through the roof, do you hit the workout max during the last ditch effort to maintain the pace, or is it actually dropping a little bit below the max you reached earlier?

My feeling is that for you it will drop below the max as soon as you do as little as 200 meters off pace. If my prediction is wrong, forget everything I've said earlier, you just need high mileage. The 5 K still needs to get up to 18:30, but it will through high mileage.

[Jon Allen]

Sasha- I know that a faster 5k time normally correlates to faster marathon times.  But I don't see how this is possible without marathon specific training, especially high mileage.  For someone who is running sufficient miles to compete in a marathon (let's say 60+ mpw or so), adding additional 5k speed on top of base miles could provide marginal marathon improvement.  But I would argue that the time would be better spent improving LT pace or sustained MP.  And for someone running low mileage, improving 5k time or even shorter (100 m to 2 miles) would do nothing for marathon times.  Just my two cents. 

Thoughts from others?

[Dallen]

I'm not an OTQ caliber guy, but here is my analysis.

If you can do a 2:57 TOU off of 45 MPW, you ought to be able to do a 2:47 off of higher milaege. I would say somewhere in the 70-100 mile range, but everyone is different as to how much they can handle. Just find what you body can do without injury. My observations are that elite females seem to run lower totals than elite men. Women 70-90, men 90-120. Not sure why this is, but I assume it has a physiological basis.

Agree with the Timan principle as outlined above.

Find some guys for training partners. You are too fast to find many female partners and you need someone who can push you. You could probably easily find some guys on the blog to pace you to a 2:47 (or whatever it is) when the time comes. For many of us that would be a good training run. Don't be afraid to ask when the time comes.

I would do a flat marathon or two to get the feel.

You're going to probably go out of stare for any OTQ attempt. Everything in Utah is ineligible or at too high elevation. You might as well find a race you like and give it a try. My experience is that most people do better on a course that is not new to them.

Good luck

[allie]

thanks everyone for your input. much appreciated.

i think for me, higher mileage is a must to get better. i want to try to get my average up around 80, but that will take a bit because right now it is only 60.

as for improving my 5K time, i also think that is a must. but i think i can do marathon-specific workouts while at the same time increasing my 5 K speed. (??) i will do some "time trial" workouts and post results.

also a must is racing on a valid course. that was my plan with running rock n roll arizona, but it ended up not working out. another attempt next year though.

again, thanks for your help!

[Paul Petersen]

as for improving my 5K time, i also think that is a must. but i think i can do marathon-specific workouts while at the same time increasing my 5 K speed. (??) i will do some "time trial" workouts and post results.

This is true to a degree. As you do marathon-specific workouts over a consistent basis, you will simply become a better runner. Your 5K times will get better, mostly through better aerobic conditioning, better economy, and better efficiency. Now will you reach your 5K potential through marathon training? Certainly not. But can you PR in the 5K off of marathon training? Certainly. IMO, specificity of training is a very important concept. To reach your marathon potential, you must do marathon-specific training. Sure, focusing specifically on 5K/10K for a training cycle is a great thing to do once a year or so, as it gives you a mental and physical break, wards off injury, and also helps develop other systems (kind of Sasha's point). But when it comes down to crunch-time, there is only one way to hit your optimal marathon performance: marathon-specific training. Actual mileage can look different for different people, but it definitely involves long workouts, lots of tempos, long intervals, and extremely easy days in between.

So I guess my long-winded point is that it's great to incorporate different types of training cycles within your overall multi-year scheme to hit your goals. Throw in a summer or two where you just focus on 5K and 10K. But your marathon build-ups should be specific to that particular race.

[allie]

ran ''90 second quarters to failure" today. details and HR data on my blog entry (Thurs 2/19). any feedback???
thanks

[Sasha Pachev]

Sorry it took me so long to notice. I left some comments on the entry.

[allie]

thanks for the feedback Sasha.