How many marathons are too many?

[seesuerun]

Two questions.
A lot of you run way over 40 miles a week. What does your training look like? How do you break that mileage up by the days in the week in order to get that high?

Also in your opinion, how many marathons a year are too many? I am considering the grand slam. Is that too hefty of a goal for a rookie (a rookie compared to most on this forum)?  Thanks for your patience with my questions.

[Chris M]

Here are some examples of weeks I've done

~80 miles
Mon 6*1k @3:55 pace, strides, w/u/cd tot 11
Tue am 7 easy; pm 5 easy
Wed am 30mins tempo 4:11 pace, strides tot 10; pm AA/core work
Thur am 7 easy; pm 5 w couple hill repeats
Fri am 7 easy
Sat 18 mile progressive steady
Sun am 9 miles shakeout very easy; pm AA/core work

~66 miles
Mon - am 7 miles steady; pm 5 miles w 14 strides
Tue - 10 easy
Wed - 7 steady
Thr - 10 steady
Fri - 7 easy
Sat - Pub to Pub ~7.4 mile race in 48:52 + 2.5 w/u c/d
Sun - 10 miles steady

This works well for me and I'm comfortable on 70mpw, I find it helps to double couple of days a week, just so I'm not running over 10 miles much, longest run is 18 otherwise. It took me a while (18weeks) to build up to this last year, during that time I didn't do any workouts just steady runs, now I am stronger and can handle the workouts. When I built up my legs were pretty tired and I didn't push the pace too much - just went easy. I tend to have one day a week that is really easy (around 9:40 pace compared to my steady run pace of say 8:20ish) usually on the Sunday to help recovery.

Hope this is useful.

[adam]

Not to be mean, but if you're running less than 40 miles a week and considering the Grand Slam I hope your also considering getting good health insurance with PT, Chiro, and and lots of other fun things because next year isn't going to feel so good for you.

If you're considering the marathon, up the miles, pick one or two (at most your rookie year) and focus on those. you'll run better, faster, and come back next year healthy.

[Sasha Pachev]

Go to http://fastrunningblog.com/top_runners.php

Click on individual blogs. You can peruse individual training histories in detail. You can see years and and years of training. As for my training, I have every training day recorded since 1999.

Otherwise - I agree with what Adam has said. In addition, I would offer the following principle to adopt as a guideline. The best thing a runner could do to improve his times is to decrease the ambition and to increase the diligence. This is very un-American, or more precisely un-pop-culture American. For someone raised in the US who has been exposed enough to the US pop-culture to imbibe of it at a sensitive age this is going to be very difficult, but nevertheless possible for the soul that honors humility as a welcome guest. And perhaps, as a side note, this does in part explain why the Japanese runners are so successful in spite of their lack of Quality X.

Pop-culture American thought is that marathon is a challenge. They give you a finisher medal, put your name in a paper, and neighbors say wow. However, to achieve best results in the marathon you must remove yourself from that mindset. Do not think of a marathon as a challenge, treat it as just another race. A fairly long race, a race to be respected, but a speed race, a long 10 K with a fuel quirk if you will. Do not be anxious to prove anything in the marathon. If you want personal satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment, a fast 5 K is better than jogging 5 marathons. At least I get a lot more excited when I hear about a female runner that breaks 19:00 in a 5 K than the one than runs 5 3:30 marathons in one year. However, if that runner wants to make some money, then she needs to work on her marathons, because she can do 5 sub-3:00 marathons a year with proper training, and those do pay a lot better than sub-19:00 5Ks.

On to the specifics. Increase the mileage gradually to 60-70 a week. Six days a week, no skipping, no excuses. Do not worry about the pace, let it come naturally. Do not do any speed work until you can finish a 10 mile run day after day and have no knowledge that you've run 10 miles from your body signals, the only way you know you've run that far is from the memory of being on the road. Race short races without a taper to monitor your progress. After a short while you'll think of a 5 K as a long sprint, you begin to dread it in a way, you want the race to be longer so you would not have to run so hard from the gun. Then a 10 K moves into that category. The time to think about a marathon is when you start thinking of a half as a very long 5 K, when you are in pain 2 miles into your half, but are able to maintain the pace to the finish anyway. In other words, your half marathon race pace starts approaching your 5 K race pace closely.

For the marathon - the most effective training is 10-15 mile tempo at projected marathon race pace or a little quicker, or just race a half, no taper, end the run with 20 miles total. Of course, maintain the base mileage, there are no magic workouts that will carry you to success in the marathon without the base mileage to support them.

[Michelle Lowry]

I agree with the comments.  The grand slam is too many for almost any marathoner, especially considering you are required to run four marathons within 6 months, its not even spread over a full year.  Its better to run a couple well than many half-way.  Also, several of the grand slam races are real duds.  I haven't heard alot of praise for the DesNews marathon, for instance.  And the St. G marathon is hard on your body. 

I can't think of an appropriate way to train to race a marathon with 40 miles a week.  Assume you run a 20 miler, that leaves 20 miles for the five other days (six other days if you don't take a day off).  That may be enough to help you jog a marathon in 5 hours, 4 hours if you have talent laden genes.  I guess it depends on whether you want to race a marathon (80 mpw), run a marathon (65 mpw) or survive a marathon (40 mpw). 

[Bill Cobler]

The Grand Slam is a different kind of challenge.  Don't even think of doing it at low mileage.  Also, if you truely are racing or running marathons for time (PR's) the grand slam is not the way to go.  Not enough recovery between races and to complete it you can't train to your fullest ability.  In some cases runners look passed an on coming injury and run just to say they completed the slam.  Not a good health decision for your future. 

You are a rookie, you say, my advice would be to do one maybe two in a year, but do your training with a group.  Have fun preparing for the big race.  That way even if the outcome is not what you wanted, you will look back and still be satisfied.  It is a Marathon and you never know what to expect on race day.  Too many, set time goals and if they don't hit it feel like the entire training cycle was a waste.  So have fun along the way and relish the accomplishment of doing both your training and racing at your best.

[Josse]

I have thought about the grand slam many times.  Then I remember I want to run for a very long time.  I ran 3 marathons this last year and feel like I was pushing the limit.  I also ran 60-80 miles a week.  I would recommend only doing a max of 2 marathons a year.  One in the spring and on in the fall.  Also if you are going to run high mileage I would take your time building up and using crosstraining to get more mileage in.

[seesuerun]

Thanks. Great suggestions please keep them coming. This blog is a great resource for me. I really don't know anyone personally who can give me this information. I really want to improve my PRs. I have ran three marathons and oodles of shorter races but I believe that is still rookie status for this group.

This past year I decided I could run faster than I previously thought. Now in my thirties I would like to run more competitively and start increasing overall mileage. Sasha your input is especially helpful on how to do it. I see the end goal of high mileage but I am unsure of how to get there. Advanced training programs usually don't go that high. Do you build to 60 (or higher) and maintain that the rest of your life with race tappers? I was guessing that a Grand slam was just part of that maintenance of high mileage program but from the comments it sounds a bit more grueling and a little dangerous.

I have seen and followed plenty of training programs for beginners but haven't found an advanced training program that goes up to the mileage that we have discussed. (any ideas?) I know about the 10 percent rule so I am supposing that I increase to that degree until I reach 60 miles at least.

Thanks again for the input and patience with my questions. Other comments especially including training tips for high mileage are still very welcome.

Josse what kind of cross training would you suggest and how do you fit it in with high mileage?

[Jon Allen]

Sue

For training programs that go high mileage, the best I have ever seen in a book is Pete Pfitzinger's "Advanced Marathoning" http://astore.amazon.com/fastrunningbl-20/detail/0736034315/189-2852556-6384223
It has 55 mpw programs, 70 mpw, and 90+ mpw.  Most people do not just maintain a high mileage- you still follow a program with a base building, then build with speedwork to a peak, then taper for a race.  You want to maximize fitness while minimizing risk of injury.  Marathons are hard because you go all out for 26 miles, so it is quite a bit harder on your body than just running high mileage.  I have never done it, but many people I know who do the Grand Slam end up injured.  You still want to follow the 10% rule- in fact, the higher your mileage, the more you are walking the line between fitness and injury, so you have to be more careful, especially if you have never run that much before.

I would really suggest taking a look at that book.  You may also have luck googling some elite's training programs (like the Hanson Project), and maybe scale down the mileage/workouts to your level.

Good luck

By the way, unless you have lots of free time, most people find they have to stop cross training as they spend more and more time increasing their running mileage.  But cross training can be a good "easy/recovery" day running replacement to give your body a break while still getting in a workout.  Realize, however, that the best way to improve your running is by running.

[Michelle Lowry]

Daniel's running formula has a good running program designed for your level of marathoning (between beginner and elite).

Also you can use the training programs in the Competitive Runner's Handbook.  I lent mine out and it's been a while so I don't remember how high the miles go, but I think the marathon training program was higher mileage.

Aren't you the Sue who lives in Springville who I met in Payson?  If so, let me know if you want to get together and run sometime.  I drive to SF quite a bit to run.  When you start doing 60+ miles per week, you've really got to have some dedicated running partners to help the time fly.

[seesuerun]

Great I am excited to look at those training programs and I will buy the books.

That was me in Payson. I wasn't sure if you remembered. I would like to run with your group sometime. I would try not to slow you down even if it killed me Cross training is tricky for me. I teach aerobics classes part-time which is one reason why my mileage is not as high as I would like. I get paid for those classes but not for running. I think I am to the point, however, that I am going to cut back on the classes and focus on the running. I will regret it if I don't give this more of a try. Thanks again for the info. Please drop me a line or a note if I could run with you guys sometime that would be great!

[Jeff Linger]

I'd like to add support to both Daniel's Running Formula as well as Pfitzinger's Advanced Marthoning. As well, I found Matt Fitzgerald's Brain Training for Runners exceptionally useful. For more on the importance/benefits of higher mileage Running with Lydard (It might be called Running the Lydard Way) has some great stuff in it.

[Chris M]

I have both the Pfitz book and the Daniels one - the Pfitz book (which has a new edition out now) also has a section on doing multiple marathons eg 2 with a month between so may be of interest.

Even though they are slightly different approaches to marathoning, it is worth getting both of them, Daniels has the pace charts with approximate tempo/interval etc paces in, which can be a useful reference.

[Sasha Pachev]

I like to say that one of the biggest mistakes of a runner is to follow a program that was written for somebody else. Success does not come from a magic program. It comes from being able to understand your current level of fitness and body signals and respond appropriately on a daily basis.

I would recommend starting by moving to 6 days of running a week immediately. A reasonably healthy low-mileage runner can usually start by doing his regular daily run 6 times a week. If you feel you are handling it well, add a mile to each day. Do that for a couple of weeks, if you feel good, add another mile. Listen to your body, reduce the ambition, do not try to move mountains in your workouts, just get out and plod along. Very important - do not force the pace.

Once every 2-3 weeks run a race or a time trial. If you are not improving, you need to evaluate and try to understand why. If you are handling the mileage OK, you can also add strides - pickups for 10-20 seconds at about 1 mile race pace - in the middle of your run.

It would really help if you had a blog set up. We can only offer very generic advice if we do not see your workouts.

[Michelle Lowry]

Sue - can you give me your email or phone number?  We are meeting in SF tomorrow morning and Sat morning and I can give you more info privately.