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Author Topic: Help! I'm getting worse!  (Read 10765 times)
Jeff Gardner
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« on: October 10, 2012, 10:58:33 pm »

I've been running for a long time, but really only trying to get faster for the last 5 years. I've been following something similar to "Run Less Run Faster" ever since having ITBS problems 5 years ago and have done really well with it, both in preventing injuries and getting faster--at least at everything but the marathon.
My PRs: 5K 19:20, 10K 41:41, 1/2M 1:29. All of these were on fast downhill courses, but in the last year, I've tried two marathons, Ogden and St G (also fast downhill courses), and have crashed hard on both. I did Ogden in 3:37 and felt like absolute crap from about mile 18 on. For St G, I upped my mileage a little bit, threw in a few more 20+ milers and despite the great weather, did worse--3:42, only this time I felt like crap from about mile 6 on. Some of that was GI issues due to a new energy drink I tried the morning of the race (I know...stupid), but I'm concerned that my body just isn't up for marathons (I'm 6'4 200 lbs). A 1:29 should not translate to a 3:37, and more high mileage runs should not make me slower! So I'm frustrated.

I'm willing to try this one more time, but only if I can be assured that 1) I'll get faster and not slower and 2) I won't feel like complete crap at the end. I don't mind that tired, gave it all you got kind of feeling, but at the end of both marathons, I felt really ill. I don't like that and it's not worth it to me to keep running the distance if marathons are just necessarily going to feel that way. My training has always maxed out at about 35 miles a week (3 days a week), which I realize is low for a marathon. I'm willing to increase to 4 or 5 days and 50 miles a week in the winter months when I like running the most and I can't mountain bike or cycle anyway. Do you think that'll make a difference? Or do marathons just feel like crap necessarily?
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allie
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2012, 06:43:21 am »

going from 35 miles/3 days a week to 50 miles/5 days a week should absolutely make a difference. "run less to run faster" doesn't really make sense for the marathon. i do not think you can adequately prepare to run a marathon off only three days of running per week -- even if you are getting those 20+ milers in. consistency is the key here. run as much as you can -- at least 5 days a week, although 6-7 is ideal if your schedule permits. i think with these adjustments you will find the marathon to be a much more pleasant experience (although it will never actually be pleasant; that's not the point  Smiley ). best of luck.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 08:38:02 am by allie » Logged
Andrea North
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2012, 08:59:39 am »

I agree with Allie. The more aerobic conditioning you can do the better. If you are worried about the increased mileage in terms of injury, I would suggest running at least a couple days a week on soft surfaces  and exercising on the elliptical or bike on the "off-running" days.
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Jeff Gardner
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 10:24:12 am »

Thanks for the thoughts.
I'm looking at doing the Higdon's advanced 2 program, which maxes out in the mid 50s. Do you guys follow programs? Or just wing it?
I'm looking at the Phoenix Marathon in March, which would have me starting the first week of November. I'm still a little sore from last Saturday, but I'm thinking I'll be ready to get going next week with the first of the program, since it's fairly low miles, which would give me some spare "sick" weeks if I needed them, or ideally, a chance to get in another 20+ miler (how high do you guys max on your long runs?). How soon is too soon to start up again?
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Andrea North
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 12:37:05 pm »

This is a great program to follow. The key components to any good marathon program are - a long run, a tempo run at MP, intervals at faster than MP, and a medium long run. If you can get that into your training, I really don't think there's any way you won't get stronger in the marathon distance.

In terms of long runs, the most I have done is 22 although I think the amount of time on your feet is more important than the actual distance.

You just ran St. George last weekend...honestly, everyone is different in the amount of time of recovery. My thoughts on recovery after the marathon are to wait until you are completely fresh, both mentally and physically, and then wait one more week (safety factor!) before starting up a new training cycle.

Several people on the blog are thinking about the Phoenix Marathon. JakeK's parents live down there, so the two of us were planning to race there as well. It's a great course!
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:48:22 pm by Andrea North » Logged
Sasha Pachev
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 11:43:47 am »

Jeff:

The following recipe has worked without fail on every 3-4 days a week runner I've observed (out of maybe 100-200 or so) to produce a marathon PR of at least 30 minutes over the course of no more than two years. I cannot think of one exception - maybe I am getting old and my memory is bad, but I cannot think of any :-)

Here is the program:

Take your good average mileage per week and divide it by 7. Add maybe 10-20% to the number. Start running that many miles Mon-Fri. On Saturday go double. On Sunday rest.  When you feel you are recovering well, the same pace feels easier and more sustainable, and there appears to be no threat of injuries, add one mile to the daily run and two miles to the Saturday long run. Keep increasing until your daily run is 10 and your Saturday run is 20. Feel free to pick up the pace at the end of your runs as you feel inclined, but otherwise do not stress about the speed as long as you are running faster than 10:00 per mile.

So that means your long run cannot be 20 until your daily run is 10. This might be hard to swallow for some runners because they come from a culture where the long run is sacred while the regular weekly run is optional. We correct this by saying that the long run has its place, but 80% of your fitness will come from your daily runs.

I would say that speed work is almost completely irrelevant for the purpose of competing in the marathon for any runner with the mileage less than 50 per week. The reason I say that is their current "race" pace is slower than their easy run pace. As they increase the mileage their easy pace gets faster, and they are able to race the marathon significantly faster than the pace of their easy runs. So before they hit the level of endurance where speed begins to matter they have already improved by 30 minutes, and sometimes even by a full hour.

It is absolutely critical, though, that you approach your training with a professional attitude. Sure, you may not be fast enough to win prize money, and even if you could get there, it would never be enough to pay the bills. That, however, should not take away from your focus. You must be seriously committed to making your runs happen. It must not be like home teaching in your average less celestial Elder's quorum which happens around 50% of the time even though the message about the importance of 100% is delivered by various church leaders at frequent intervals. Rather, it needs to be like what you would see in a ward that is 100% committed. Do not leave your widow mitochondria and other abandoned parts of the endurance subsystems unvisited.
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Michael Laputka
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 11:02:54 pm »

Jeff, I got my Boston jacket by listening to Sasha.  It's a simple plan and it works. 
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Jeff Gardner
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 07:41:21 am »

Ok...6 months later and I'm still just as frustrated.

Saturday, I ran Ogden. Here's the report I put together for some friends if you're curious. It's a little detailed, so if not, skip to below:

Quote
After a really poor night of sleep sharing a full size bed with my wife at a friend's house, I woke up about 3 (woke up--ha...got out of bed, rather) and downed a couple of bowls of cereal. It had been raining hard all night and I'm praying it stops despite a forecast of 40's and rain at the start. I'm a southern Utah runner--running in rain is not my thing and I don't really have any idea how to dress or run in heavy rain. I settle on shorts and tank with some sleeves, thinking that has the least chance of chaffing, with a hat.

We take the bus up to the start line and on the ride, I talk a little with the woman next to me from Bogota, Colombia who had come just for the marathon, which I thought was pretty cool. She lives at 3000 m, so no concerns about altitude for her. I'm debating what to do with my IT band--I've brought two syringes with bupivacaine in them--and I decide to surreptitiously inject it on the ride, hoping to avoid accusing glances from her and everyone else (I think I got away with it). I pack the other syringe in case I have problems during the race.

At the start, the rain slows down, even stops for a little bit, so I decide to toss the sleeves in my pickup bag and I wait around in a garbage bag for the race to start. Of course, just before the start, it starts up again, hard, and never really lets up the rest of the race. I still have thoughts of breaking 3:30, so I get chatting with the 3:25 pacer, a guy from Cincinnati, who easily has the goofiest stride I've ever seen on a decent runner. He says his PR is in the 2:50's but I've never seen a sub 3 guy run like him. This is the first time he's run this one, but I guess he paced at St G. Nice guy.

You can divide this race into 3 major sections--the first 8 a pretty fast downhill section, the second 8 a flat one with a couple of little hills around the lake, and the third 8 another downhill that ends with a flat final 3 miles. I down a 1/2 bottle of gatorade to start the race (I always do this) and stick with the pacer. Something is immediately wrong as I'm already feeling like that Gatorade is not sitting well. I think it'll go away and just stick with the pacer for the first couple of miles at about 7:20, but then he slows up, worried that he's losing some people. I keep going because I feel fine and I hate braking on downhills, but the unsettled feeling doesn't go away. HR stays 145-150.

At about 6.5 miles, I start thinking that I need to do a gel, even if I feel like that's the last thing I want to do, remembering my problems from last year when I bonked hard at mile 18. I put down a strawberry gel and immediately realize how bad that idea was. Within a half mile, I feel it coming back up, and I pull off the road and start vomiting. A couple of encouraging voices tell me to hang in there, which I think is silly because aside from the nausea, I feel fine.

Feeling a little better, I get running again, but the nausea returns within a quarter mile. I skip the mile 7 water stop because I don't want anything to come up, but the nausea just continues to worsen. HR is still sub-150, so I don't really slow up much, but my average pace is now at 8:00, due to the nausea stop and the flattened terrain. By mile 10, I can't hold it anymore and I pull off the side and start projectile vomiting. I guess I look pretty bad this time because a guy stops and asks if I'm OK. I'm not, but there's nothing he can do about it, so I wave him on and say I'll be fine. This was a long stop. I was searching for a car to pick me up and would have taken a ride in a second. Unfortunately (or fortunately), nothing in sight, so I decide I'll get to the half point, where there's a relay stop, and I'll call it a day.

I couldn't care less what my time is at this point, so I just start off at a slow jog. Having vomited about everything in my stomach, I'm feeling a little better, so I just keep going. Again, legs and lungs feel fine, so I start to think that if the nausea's gone, maybe I can finish this thing. And as long as I go really slow and easy, the nausea stays at bay, but as soon as I start to speed up a bit, I start to feel things come up. I know I have no hope of a PR at this point, so I just settle into a really comfortable pace and just try to enjoy it.

I get through the half point and decide I'll finish. Stomach doesn't feel great, but it doesn't feel awful either, and I start to think that I don't want to face my kids having quit. We have a saying in our house that we use whenever our kids say something is hard: "You can do hard things". And that's my mantra for the rest of the race, with an effing tossed in. Sheri Dew, the source of the quote, probably didn't intend that, but it works. The rest of the race is in a downpour, running around "puddles" (better termed small lakes) along the path, and while it's beautiful, it's also really cold, wet, and in sloshing drenched heavy shoes. It's easily the most miserable race conditions I've run in, although it definitely beats an Ironman in Houston (and I actually had this thought multiple times through the race). There's a woman in a cute running skirt that I stick behind for a while, maybe a little for the view, but mostly to give me some sort of motivation to keep going. I pass her once on a downhill, she passes me back on an uphill, I lose her on a bathroom break, I pass her back on a surge right before we hit the flats at the end, and I keep expecting her to catch me but she never does. I think about my kids a lot during those last ten miles, and each time I do, I feel a little teary. It's weird that marathons do this to me--I'm not a very emotional guy. When I see them cheering for me as I'm sprinting out my final stretch (I actually had some good energy at the end of this), I almost lose it. One of the beautiful things of these challenges for me are that it strips life down to its bare essentials and helps me remember what I most value in the world.

Anyway, final time is 3:42, I think. A bit disappointing, but I finished, and I'm prouder of that finish than of any other. There was really not a lot of reason for me to finish--I've already proven to myself I can run one and I wasn't going to PR--but I wanted to show my kids that they can do hard things. I think they remain blissfully unaware of that lesson, so maybe I just needed to prove it to myself. I feel a little silly posting this next to niku's much harder thing that he can do--I fully realize that it doesn't compare.

My IT band was great the whole race, until the medicine wore off that night. I imagine I'll be rehabbing it for a few weeks now--it hurts pretty badly now. The GI issues that I keep having are really puzzling. I'm starting to wonder if it's mental. Or maybe I'm starting out too fast. Or again...maybe this just isn't my distance. For right now, I can see myself running another marathon, but not trying to run one fast. But much like childbirth, I'm sure the memory will wear off and I'll be signed up again some day.

I'm obviously already back to the drawing board, despite that last sentence. Smiley I really, really want Boston. Is it just not in the cards?

Somehow, I missed your reply, Sasha. I like the simplicity, and certainly like the results. Thanks for posting it.

For this one, I followed the Pfitzinger program 55-70 miles, pretty religiously, with the exception that I would occasionally substitute my shortest easy/recovery run (usually a 5-6 miler) with mountain biking. There was a point, however, about six weeks prior to the end, where I felt like I was just burned out on running and my body was breaking down. So I stepped back to the 40-54 (I think) program. The following week, during a 12 miler on a treadmill, my IT band suddenly seized up. I haven't had any problems with it for 6 years and it was on my left side before, so I didn't really know what it was. It became clear over the next few days, however, and my last 5 weeks had good and bad days, but not the mileage I had on the schedule. Three of those were taper weeks, obviously, so I don't know how adversely the lower miles affected me. I injected it with bupivacaine prior to the race (I'm a physician), so I didn't even feel it for the race, so that part didn't affect me at all.

Anyway, a few questions--and I'm desperate enough to frequently check for responses this time Smiley.
I don't think I'll try again to qualify until next spring. I need a break--I was mentally beaten even before the race this time. And I miss bicycling. So I think I'll do a few halves and tris through the summer and start a new cycle when I can't ride any more. On your program Sasha, do you ever take dial-back weeks? If I'm doing some cross-training in the summer, should I still follow it, or just wait for the winter (I'm willing to run 4 days/week through the summer--I'll get back up to 6 in the winter).

Thanks for your and others' help. I may try Andrea's program through the summer just for some kind of thing to follow. I'll check back here much more frequently. Looks like there is a lot of good wisdom on here.
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dave rockness
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2013, 08:19:21 pm »

Jeff, congratulations on persevering...also, I can attest to Sasha's plan.  Average 10 miles a day and gradually build up the long run.  It got me from a 4:12 marathon to a 3:10 marathon in 6 months. 
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Jeff Gardner
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2013, 07:57:50 am »

So what kind of effort level do you run those 10 miles at?
Once you build up to 10's and 20 on the weekend, you don't do that every week, do you? Do you ever cycle the training at all?
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2013, 07:10:28 pm »

Your runs should be reasonably easy, such that you aren't sore or tired at your run the next day.  I would suggest 1-2 min slower than marathon pace.

If you want cycles, I would suggest doing about 75% miles every 4th week or so.  I find my race schedule naturally lends itself to higher and lower periods, anyways.  Good luck!
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Jeff Gardner
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 05:34:23 am »

You never run any MP or tempo runs? So, if BQ is 3:15 for me (7:20ish), I can get there with all my training runs in the 8:30-9 range? That's certainly appealing--who doesn't like long slow runs--but that seems crazy. Don't take this as arguing--just making sure I understand you correctly.
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 04:34:48 am »

I do a little speed work, maybe 2 tempo runs a month on average. But 90% of fitness is base miles. But if you want to throw in some speed with strides, fartlek, or tempo, do it.

I have improved my 5k pr by almost a minute while only doing base miles for ultra marathons. Speedworkmis overrated without base.

If you want marathon specific speed work, look up Big Workouts on this forum.
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Kam
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 01:48:22 pm »

IMHO, fast running is for racing.  If you run too many fast miles in your training, you will end up burned out, injured or both.  That said, adding a few tempo miles at the end of your daily runs, and incorporating 4-10 miles of MP miles in your long runs is really all it takes.  Short intervals don't help with marathoning.
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Jake Krong
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 04:33:01 pm »

Short intervals don't help with marathoning.

I would say that's a bit of a broad generalization. I agree that even seasoned runners have a LONG way to go in developing their overall aerobic capability, and that is the biggest determining factor in marathon performance. And along those lines, getting your overall mileage up, staying healthy, and doing long runs is what most people should focus on. But to say short intervals have no benefit (even over 26.2) is not true at all. Used properly, they can absolutely help - but shouldn't be done at the expense of the other elements. They should supplement and enhance the more important runs.
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