Utah Valley Marathon Strategies, Banter, and Hype

[Paul Petersen]

Careful Tom, the limb might break with both of us sitting on it!

[Sasha Pachev]

It is impossible to lay out  a course anywhere in the Utah Valley that is faster than St. George. If you could extend the Hobble Creek canyon for 26 miles without having to rise to 7000 feet you might be able to.

The "fast end of season" argument is weak. Runners that take until October to be in shape to run a good marathon are too inconsistent anyway to use as a gauge. I do not use them in my estimates.

Do not know if it was already mentioned, but Hobie Call is going to be in the race (marathon). So we might see a sub-2:20 if he is in shape.

[steve ashbaker]

Well, both sides are right I think in some ways.  However, Paul is right when you consider there are other factors involved here.  Once you get down to the valley side of the trail you are going to notice a lot of little variations; slope change, bridge underpasses, race day temp, etc.   I'd say it is faster/slower depending on the runner and his strengths or weaknesses and within a range of about 2-5 min vs TOU.  Utah Valley is a fast one, but defininitely NOT faster than St George however..   That valley river trail has a way of really sucking the oomph out of your legs towards the end.  Just a feeling based on my own personal experience with all three courses.

[Jeffrey McClellan]

Steve, none of the course this year is going to be on the river trail.  It is on the highway from way out in the middle of nowhere, comes down the canyon onto University Avenue into Provo, and finishes at the Provo mall.

[Jose Jimenez]

Having run both Ogden and TOU I would say that Ogden, which has a net elevation loss of 1,127 is faster than TOU.  At TOU after mile 16-17 you are sunk in the rollers and twists and turns until the end.  The short climb near the end at Main street doesn't help matters either.  Ogden doesn't get to the dreaded trail portion until well after mile 20 and the last mile is a straight shot to the finish.  I lived in Provo for a while and I go on Univerity Ave. practically every week and I can't get over the fact that as you come out of the canyon it looks like you are either flat or climbing on the way to the Provo Towne mall, not to mention the overpass climb as you get to East Bay.  I don't see how any marathon that has the challenging parts of the course at the very end is going to be faster than a course like St. George and (for the most part) Ogden that has an easier end and that has essentially the same or more elevation loss.  In the endI think these factors together with lower average elevation will always give the edge to St. George.  I think UVM will definitely be faster than TOU but my slightly educated guess is that it will be slower than Ogden.  I guess we'll find out in a couple of months!

[Paul Petersen]

Many people think TOU is faster than Ogden, and that Ogden is a DNF-trap. I think it's a toss up, probably depends on the day or on the race strategy. I like the layouts of both races, although they are quite different.

[Jose Jimenez]

That is interesting Paul because I do recall seeing more "casualties" at Ogden than at any other race I have run.  Is this what you mean by DNF-trap?  If so, why do you think that is?  All I know is that coming out of the canyon at mile 14 at TOU sucks the wind out of my sails in a way that no part of Ogden did for me.  I guess I will re-evaluate when I run Ogden again in a few weeks.

[Jon Allen]

I think the difference between TOU and Ogden is that TOU will eat you alive if you go out too fast down the canyon.  But if you start at a reasonable pace, the last few miles are actually rather enjoyable.  Well, as enjoyable as the end of a marathon can be.

[Superfly]

I'm just loving this. I knew if I threw out a little propaganda I could get a good TOU, Ogden, STG and now UV debate going. It seems we have one or two of these forms a year. And although weak I still feel that the majority of ALL runners will continually improve throughout a race season and "peak" at the end... hence STG here in Utah is at the end of the summer race season and runners across the board are in better "race" shape than they were back in May. Hats off to those who are in the same shape all year every year.

[Jon Allen]

I agree with Clyde- most Utah runners are in better racing shape in Sept/Oct than in May.

[Paul Petersen]

I am definitely in better shape in the fall than in the spring. Less fat too.

[Lindsey Dunkley]

Since you are all talking which courses are faster, etc.  I was hoping to get a little feedback specific to the Utah Valley half...how fast do you think it might be?  As a comparison, if you ran a 1:12 in the Hobblecreek half and were in the same condition, what type of time do you think would be realistic to aim for on this course.  Thanks in advance for any feedback

[Josse]

Lindsey, I would say you could expect to run a couple of minutes slower.  This course will be a just a gradual downhill, not the super steep stuff you get in Hobble creek, but you won't have any of the same kind of climbs either.  I think you can pull off a pretty great time.

[Sasha Pachev]

I would guess Utah Valley Half is about as fast as Provo River Half. So maybe 2-3 minutes slower than Hobble Creek.

Regarding Ogden DNF-trap. Ogden has rollers from 8 to 17 at 5000 feet. Any uphill at altitude is a major minus, lots of it is a lot of minus. People see 1100+ elevation drop in Ogden and come expecting an amazing time. What they do not realize is that it is not a steady 15 mile drop with hardly any uphill like TOU. You do not have long downhill stretches to get into the rhythm. TOU has uphill, but it happens after most of the race has been determined. In TOU you can blow it in the last 8 miles, but you cannot save it if you did not get to 18 fast enough. If you are holding on well, you'll just hold pace, but do not expect any amazing splits there. If you have tired legs, you may just as well be running uphill since you cannot use the downhill anyway.

That says something about the nature of marathons in general. The course needs to be laid out so that it is fuel-effecient in the first 18 miles. After that it can have some uphill, it will not matter. Early uphill is bad as it will make you either burn too much fuel or run too slow. St. George is somewhat of an exception because there is just so much of very nice fuel-efficient downhill, much of it below 4000 feet, that even if you dumped all of your fuel on Veyo and Dameron Valley you can still run OK. But Ogden is a different beast.

[Superfly]

With a couple weeks to go I'm looking forward to seeing everyone and seeing how the race turns out. However with the rumored list of "A" gamers in the half I almost wish I was just watching it instead of running the full. Could be a very competitive race with a couple late  joiners entering the field from down here in Hayden Hawks and Aaron Metler both of who could go sub 1:07 or faster on that course with good races and conditions.