Utah Valley Marathon Strategies, Banter, and Hype

[Superfly]

So with just under 2 months to go until race day I wanted to start a little "Facts" if you will discussion about the upcoming race in June. This will be my first real marathon since STG in 2008 and really the first real race after a long injury. Anyways I just want to prepare myself as best as I can to have a fun and rewarding race. Some questions I have:
1. What is the course really like? I know the profile is "downhill" but what sections are fast, slow, harder than it looks, possible race changers... I like to know the course as well as possible. Here in STG I've run this course at least a 100 times (sections anyways) and know the places to ease up and let it roll.
2. How does this course compare (now as in this year) to STG, Ogden...? For instance lets say Simon Louise was training pretty consistently at around 70-100 miles a week and with good conditions he could run a 2:35 at STG. What would he run at UV in good conditions?
3. Who is coming? With prize money 5 deep I'm guessing there will be a loaded field of both local and possibly some african elite runners. (I by all means am not planning on winning any $$$ myself... I'd guess at best in my current shape I'll be happy to go sub 2:40- plus I'm not gunning for a hard PR type race anyways.)
4. How many runners are in the full? Could this race eventually take over STG as the new "Utah's Boston". (someone should put that on a T'shirt).
5. Is the cement road going to jack us up? I'm guessing you may want to rethink wearing "racing flats" on this course or is it not really that bad?
6. Who is gonna win? Any bloggers?
7. How low will Paul go in the half? 59:30!
8. What is the finish like?
9. Can anyone really explain why we do this?
10. Is there ever a really good tail wind?

You get the point. These are some of the ideas floating around in my head and I'd like to make them public and have others participate in the hype of what I think may become the states biggest and best marathon (this is coming from a guy who lives in STG). 

[Jeffrey McClellan]

well, here goes

1. I don't know what the course is like until you hit the dam at deer creek reservoir.  There are some hills near the dam, but none that are huge.  Nevertheless, I would take it easy during the few miles after you hit the dam.  The only big hill that I know of is just past the half way mark, lasts about a mile, and is probably slightly easier than the veyo hill.  I think I made it up that hill in just a little slower than 6:00 during the race last year, and I wasn't pushing the pace.  Either downhill or flat from there to the finish, with the exception of the overpass over the railroad tracks near the end, so you can really let loose anywhere from about 14 to the finish, especially once it flattens out a bit leaving the canyon.
2.  maybe 2-3 min slower than St. George???
3.  I am running the half, Sasha is in the full, otherwise I have no clue.
4.  I think the competition will ultimately be better here than St. George, but with a half added the full will probably never be as big as St. George, as the half will pull away lots of people from the full.
5.  I don't think the cement is too bad, not much different than asphalt.
6.  depends on who shows up.  Decent chance that a blogger will win the half with me and Paul running it.
7.  Paul will run 59:40, but I will run 59:39 
8.  Not sure.  Las year it was right in front of the mall, and was pretty low key.
9.  mental illness, definitely
10.  Once you get past the dam there is a chance of tailwind.  The earlier you get there the more likely you are to catch it.  Almost no chance of headwind coming down the canyon.

[Paul Petersen]

59:40 vs. 59:39 will be a battle for the ages. Despite coming up on the short end, I'll remember it always.

[Michelle Lowry]

I think Paul's little penguin picture says it all, but who will be doing the smacking and who will be doing the belly flop?  Just kidding, the great thing about races is everyone races the clock.  I will be a spectator again this year, hopefully without crutches this time.

[Superfly]

Jeff thanks that is some good food for thought. I'm still a little puzzled about the section above the dam. I didn't even know there was a road or town up that way. I looked on google earth and it's there but I can't tell what the details are. Might be worth driving before the race I guess.
So you think on equal conditions and training that this course is 2-3 min's slower than STG? I was thinking it might be faster due to the lack of "uphill" compared to STG's Veyo and the 3ish mile Dameron valley climb.

[Matthew Rowley]

IWhen I look at the elevation profile is see I long to to steep hill from mile 6 to 8.  What is this hill like? 

[Paul Petersen]

Nothing is faster than St George. My own expectations are for this course to be similar to Top of Utah. Maybe slower, if there is no tailwind. TOU is usually about 4 minutes slower than St George.

[Hyrum]

I think that our course may rival St. George.  We have a much better distribution of downhill.  It is a continual gradual downhill that won't beat you up.  You don't come out of the canyon until mile 19, and even from there it is still downhill to the mall.  The hill you noticed from 6-8 was from the Wallsburg turnoff to the Dam.  Only time will tell if our new course is faster than St. George.  They do have about 1,000 more drop than us, but I am confident that we have a better distribution of downhill.  Almost the entire drop their course gives you is when you essentially fall off a cliff those last 6 miles.  Here are the links to both races elevation charts: http://utahvalleymarathon.com/utah-valley-marathon-map.php  http://stgeorgemarathon.com/race/courseinfo.php  When you look at both charts I think that Utah Valley clearly has the better distribution for speed, but Paul is the pro.  Paul I do wish you would run our full so that you could speak from experience about our course which is the faster race.  I understand you have other goals that conflict with you running our full, and we are just happy to even have you run our half marathon.  Seth Wold says he thinks our course will be 2-3 minutes faster than St. George.  Also, I have to strongly disagree that TOU would be faster than Utah Valley.  Look at the elevation charts.  There is no reason that would be true.  TOU only has a net change in elevation of 1079, and there is no net loss from 18-26.2.  Utah Valley on the other hand has a net elevation change of 1459, and the elevation continues to drop even in the last miles.  There is absolutely no reason TOU should be as fast as Utah Valley!  Utah Valley has 35% more net elevation drop, and it has a better distribution of downhill.

[Paul Petersen]

We'll see, Hyrum!  Please take no offense of what I say, as this thread is indeed titled "strategies, banter, and hype". The purpose is to make some predictions and get some discussion going. I stand by my prediction that NO COURSE in Utah (or the rest of Planet Earth) is as fast as St George, and never will be.

For the record, I think that TOU is a very fast course, partially helped by howling tailwinds and cool weather. There's more to it than topography and net drop, IMO. And it's not a put-down to say that a course will be as fast as TOU. TOU is probably one of the fastest in the nation. St George is simply in a league of it's own, so I'm skeptical of claims that any course will be faster.

I'm very much looking forward to UVM. Very excited. Hyrum is bent on putting on the best marathon in Utah, and I don't doubt that he can do it.

[Paul Petersen]

Oh, and running the full marathon at UVM is definitely on my 2-year plan. A June marathon is just not right for me this year. But a June half is perfect!

[Superfly]

I have the same feelings that Hyram has- in that there is a better distribution of downhill grade with less uphill to eat away at you and slow you down. But you can never get a clear piture of how a course compares to STG. With STG being basically at the end of the race season everyone is faster by then and more likely to bust out PR's. I've always wished there was a STG in May and one in Oct for that very reason. Times from Oct would most likely be faster. 

[Superfly]

I decided to do a little "mapping" if you will. I measured all the uphill sections from where we started our run today to where we finished. Started 4 miles above the base of Veyo Hill and finished at the church right when you enter STG. This is basically the meat and potato's of the course. There is a little hill right around the very first mile of the race course and I'm guessing it's around .5 from base to crest. But then there isn't anything with any uphill grade past the church to the finish. So the big climbs are of course Veyo at 1.05 miles, Dameron isn't as steep but much more pesky at 2.65 miles, Winchester Hill is longer than I ever realize at .90 miles and then a bunch of other shorter stuff to make a total of 5.65 miles of uphill grade- with the hill in the first mile of the course that is well over 6 miles of uphill and most of it isn't easy 1%. Anyways until I actually used the GPS and measured I didn't know there was that much uphill. I know there is a lot of downhill too and some flat but I'll stick by the old saying that "uphill slows you down much more than downhill speeds you up". So if UV has less uphills it very well could be faster... IdK. I just like to banter!

[Paul Petersen]

What about average elevation? That will come into play, esp near the end, where St George is under 3000' above sea level

If I ever get some free time, I'll update my little profile chart to include Utah Valley. Once I have some concrete numbers that I trust (I don't trust GPS elevations), I'll crunch it through a few calculators for "relative distance".

http://www.marathongis.com/demos/combined_profiles.jpg

But finding adequate time is difficult for me these days. May not happen before June!

[Tom]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that UVM will be slower than most people think.

[Superfly]

Paul your right about the elevation and that was the one area I haven't looked at. Could be a big one too.