BQ attempt in October

[Rick]

I probably should have posted my original question ("Anything wrong with all long runs?") in this area, rather than general running. Anyway, I'll move to here to ask for more advice. I am now one week into Sasha's advice of 10 miles per day, with a once/week long run. So far, so good. Question about pacing for the long run. For the 10-milers, I find myself starting slow for 3-5 miles, then finishing up a bit faster than desired marathon pace (8:14 for my age). What would be a good target pace for the long run?
My running log (not always up to date) is at http://www.runningahead.com/logs/da91d136dd2c4df598722250a97035b4

thanks loads for the free advice
Rick

[Jeff Linger]

Generally speaking target pace for your long runs is about 45s-1m15s slower than marathon race pace. That being said .... there are a whole host of things you can do with your long run. You can throw in a threshold run into the middle of a long run flanked by very easy warm up and cool down miles, you can throw in marathon pace segments, you can hit all hills hard, etc.,  but over the duration of a training period, your long runs should be primarily fat-burning, aerobic base oriented.

[Sasha Pachev]

Rick:

At this point in your training you should probably not worry too much about the pace as long as it does not break you down. Pace games are an icing on the cake. But you have to have the cake first to figure out what kind of icing is best for it.

[Rick]

What is the preferred "Fastrunningblog" taper before a marathon? I have one scheduled for the end of May. I need to go faster than 3:45, so would like to be well rested. However, I think I can make that time, based on my recent runs.

[Jon Allen]

Lots of good posts on tapers.  http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

Generally, the Runners World 3-week taper is way too long for most people.  We usually suggest 2 weeks, 10 days, 1 week, or 3 days.  For a big marathon, I personally lean towards 10 days.  But read all the posts in the link above and see what you think.  A lot depends on your experience, mileage base, injuries, etc.

[Rick]

Thinking of running a half marathon race soon, about 5 weeks before my next marathon. Part for fun and part to see if I'm getting faster. Is 5 weeks far enough out so it wouldn't slow my marathon?

[Jon Allen]

Rick- 5 weeks is plenty far out.  Even 3 weeks is plenty far for a half marathon.  If you raced a half 2 weeks before, you might see a bit of an effect.  But generally speaking, 3+ weeks is fine.

[Rick]

Can I get another "FRB Checkup" at this point, to see if I should adjust things? As per directions, I have been going for the 10 miles/day x 5 days + 1 long run since the last week of February. I've been able to move to that higher mileage level from my previous average (which was closer to 45 or 50 mpw), except for 3 days in April when I had a bad flu. Next marathon is in 25 days. My current plan is to continue 10 miles/ day Tuesday through Saturdays, then 20 miles on Sunday and Monday rest until the final week, then taper like this:

Su:  14 easy
Mo: rest
Tu: 10 easy
We: 10 with last 3 at MP
Th: 5 easy
Fr: rest
Sa: 2 easy
Su: race

so it's only a one week taper. OK? Any other advice for changes to the plan?

Also, as for pace in the race, I was originally planning to wait until October to go for a BQ, but since I'm feeling fairly strong, I think I will go for it this time. My friend thinks I won't be able to make it, but I ran a 15K race on Saturday and managed to maintain a 7:35 min/mile pace. The calculators say that would be equivalent to a 3:35:32 marathon, which would do it for me by 27 seconds. Am I being foolish to try for it at this point? (by the way, this will be my sixth marathon. My last one was 3:51)
thanks much

[Jon Allen]

Rick- for the taper, I would suggest cutting back a bit on your Sun one week before, plus maybe switch Tue and Wed, unless you are feeling real good.  Maybe 10-12 on Sun?

If you want to, you might as well go for BQ.  If it is a flat course, go out at BQ pace minus a couple minutes at the halfway mark.  If you bonk/blow up, you still have October.  And if you feel good, you may be able to get your BQ.  No harm in trying, other than the potential for a disappointing finish.  But you may be rewarded!

[Rick]

My BQ attempt was a fail (a PR by 4 minutes, but missed a BQ by 11). I had tried to increase speed work in the last two months, at the expense of mileage, and I felt it (not in a good way). I was able to maintain close to 8:00 pace until about mile 17 or so, when I slowed down a lot.
This is my new weekly training plan. Next race is in May. Seem reasonable? (my BQ pace is 8:12 overall, until they change the admission rules)

Mon   rest
Tues   10 at 9:36 - 8:48
Wed   12 - 6 at 9:30, 6 at 7:45 - 8:00
Thurs   8 at 9:45
Fri   5 x 1 mile, try for 7:00 pace (but will range from 7:30 to 7:05, given current speed)
Sat   10 at 9:36 - 8:48
Sun   20 at 9:36 - 8:30


(my log is at http://www.runningahead.com/logs/da91d136dd2c4df598722250a97035b4 )

[Jon Allen]

Bummer about the BQ.  Your schedule looks fairly reasonable.  Don't be afraid to switch it up some, at least for variety.  And I would recommend longer tempos (up to 10 miles) sometimes, rather than just doing 1 mile repeats each week.  If you add in a reasonable race every 4-6 weeks (5k, 10k, or 1/2 marathon), that should help, too.

[Rick]

Bummer about the BQ.  Your schedule looks fairly reasonable.  Don't be afraid to switch it up some, at least for variety.  And I would recommend longer tempos (up to 10 miles) sometimes, rather than just doing 1 mile repeats each week.  If you add in a reasonable race every 4-6 weeks (5k, 10k, or 1/2 marathon), that should help, too.

Ok thanks. 10 miles for a tempo is longer than I've done, so far. Can you recommend a good pace for one that long?

[Jon Allen]

For 6-10 mile tempos, go at Tinman tempo pace.  Generally, the pace you can hold for 3 hours (i.e. somewhere around marathon pace).  Should be about your 5k-pace plus 1 min/mile. 

Related links:
http://www.runningahead.com/forums/topic/cdc7ef3d7eb0459c9f9132c71035414e/6

http://www.therunzone.com/index.php?topic=1912.0
http://www.therunzone.com/index.php?topic=1904.0