Endorsement Rules Discussion

[Jon Allen]

I enjoyed your list of symptoms.  Very true- if I didn't know better, I'd think that you had encoutered some of those, esp. the smart aleck comments as you run the race course backwards 

I think you are getting into human nature.  I think most people want to do the best they can during the race (i.e. run as hard as they can), but they didn't necessarily put in as much training as they could have in the months leading up to the race to allow them to run the fastest time they are theoretically physically able.  It takes lots of determination, dedication, and perserverance to run to your physical limit.  Sasha, I think you are one of the few people with that level of dedication.  And the blog certainly has lots of others with similar characteristics.  Distance runners are certainly different than the general American population.

One thing I find interesting- there are two people I know of on this blog who offer free races: You and Davy.

[Davy Crockett]

Regarding the "mid-pack mindset symptoms"

- Comps.  As an RD, I have not problem with them, but it depends on where the race is in its life-cycle.  If it is just starting out, this might be unreasonable.  I think comps should be a private thing, not a public requirement.  Prizes are great and helpful to further attract good competition.
- Who won.   I think this is more of a problem with how massive road races are.  With ultras, the community is small enough that even back-of-the-packers pay attention to who won the races.  Ultras also seem to have much more opportunity to socialize pre, post, and during the races.  I think this is more a cultural thing than an attitude.
- cool downs and pacing.   I've got to admit when I ventured outside of ultras and ran my first 5-10ks, I observed you guys doing this and it looked more like a "victory lap" being performed by guys who were self-absorbed in their talent.   Later I came to understand better what you were doing and who you were.   However, one thing you could do is take a page from the ultras.  Whenever we have out-and-backs the runners almost all always greet the other runners with a "good job", "looking good", etc.   If on your reverse course job back you did this more, people would better understand.   Because I have to tell, you, it looks like a victory lap.

[Davy Crockett]

> there are two people I know of on this blog who offer free races: You and Davy.

Yes, I think I offer the only free 100-mile race in the country.  My main reasoning is to avoid overhead and RD time.   My race requires crews provided by the racer so I don't have to put together aid stations.  Also I don't want to deal with insurance, etc.  If I limit the size, I can avoid other overhead imposed by the county.  So that is my free race.  I do offer finisher awards out of my own pocket.   My motivation for putting on this race is to provide an "easy" 100-mile race, one that can be shared with family and friends by going along as crews.  Also to expose people to the beauty of the west desert in Utah.

I'm also on the race committee for the Antelope Island race that turned out this year to be the largest trail race ever held in the state.  So this is now a big-time race.  We don't yet offer prize money, but probably are now in a position where we could.  We have good sponsorships and good support from the state park.   Competition is better.  However, this race will never attract the national elite from the sport because the terrain is too flat.   Perhaps prize money would attract them.

[Dallen]

Not everyone enters a race to win. Not everyone even enters a race to do their best. This does not make them wrong, just different.

For example, my wife is entered in to a triathlon this summer and she has absolutely no intention to approach it in anything closely resembling a competitive manner. She thinks it will be fun and she wants to get into shape. On race day she will be the one talking to the person next to her rather than racing the person next to her.

A completely different analogy. Lets look at car washing. Some people spend hours washing and waxing their cars to make sure that their cars look absolutely perfect. They take pride in how their car looks and they take every step to make sure it is the best it can be. They might even enter their car car in some sort of contest, or race or parade or whatever. Then there is me. I might hose off my gar if it it is covered with mud or if the windshield is covered with bird droppings, but I am not going to spend all of the time and effort to make it look perfect. A 50% effort is good enoug h for me. Now, should the other car owner look down on me as a "mid-pack" car owner? He might think I am wasting the potential of my car, but I am perfectly happy the way I am.

[Jon Allen]

Good car example, Dallen.  We can't all be great runners, amazing cooks, car washers, gardeners, painters, and make homemade quilts.  We pick a few things to work hard at, a few more to give moderate attention, and ignore everything else.  And people might choose to put running in any of those categories.

[Davy Crockett]

> Not everyone enters a race to win. Not everyone even enters a race to do their best.

I understand what you are saying and agree with one exception.   It bugs me that people enter races without the intention to properly train.  In a race that is limited in size, requiring lottery, this takes away a slot from someone who is willing to put in the effort.  This can be seen more dramtically in ultras, such as Wasatch 100.  Some people are just happy to go 50 miles or less and quit without the proper training.   I realize that you usually have to DNF ultras to get to the point that you finish them, but they should go test out their fitness on other races that don't have such restrictions.   I have not idea if this translates into similar concerns for marathons since I rarely run those races.

So, your shoddy car is parked in a premire slot that causes a shiny car to be parked out in the alley.

[Dallen]

I totally agree with this. There is something wrong when the average guy takes a lottery spot in the St George marathon before he has started running while another guy who has been training all year can't get into the race.

[Sasha Pachev]

There is also something wrong with buying the latest car washing technology at a premium price, subscribing to a magazine that discusses washing cars in detail, and constantly wishing for your car to be clean, but not spending a whole lot of time washing your car and feeling you deserve just as much in a clean car contest as somebody who does a decent job cleaning his car.

[Jon Allen]

Now this is making me laugh! 

[Dallen]

There is also something wrong with buying the latest car washing technology at a premium price, subscribing to a magazine that discusses washing cars in detail, and constantly wishing for your car to be clean, but not spending a whole lot of time washing your car and feeling you deserve just as much in a clean car contest as somebody who does a decent job cleaning his car.

I think Sasha might have won the debate with this one.

I might acutally be good at this sport, so I should figure out how to subscribe to that magazine. Is the car washing contest based on time or overall cleanliness or some combination of the two?  Is there prize money?

[Davy Crockett]

All this debate has done is make me feel guilty about my dirty car.  I'll wash it this weekend.   If someone enters a car-cleaning contest I don't think it is a sub-par contest because they give a squeegee to the winners instead of cash.

[Jim Skaggs]

I'll chime in here since I'm an RD.  My take on comps is this, I offer comps to people who offer me something in return that will be of benefit to the other runners in my race.  For example, I offer anyone who works at Striders Running Store free entry since they are huge supporters of my race.  People or companies that offer something to the runners in terms of prizes to be given away also get comp offers.  Would I comp elites? No, I don't need to to attract non-elite runners.  Do elites run my race?  Some have, some elites have volunteered at my race.  I have yet to offer prize money but am considering it for 2010.  The amount would probably not show up on an elite runner's radar.  Elites race to win and the amount of prize money I would offer wouldn't be much of an incentive.
I gear my race towards a trail running event rather than a race.  People hang out all day after they finish, we eat, drink, cheer on other runners and generally have a great time.  What's nice is even the top finishers will cheer on the others, even while on the trail themselves.  I also think that ultras tend to be much more egletarian than the average road race.
Also, each comp costs money, real money that is made up thru the entry fees of other runners who paid.  By not comping too many runners, it helps to keep the entry fees a little lower than they would be otherwise, especially since I charge less for my 50K and 50 mile than Salt Lake charges for a marathon, and provide more stuff as well as a much more scenic venue.  Anyway, my 2 cents worth, and it's worth about that much.

Jim
RD Antelope Island Buffalo Run
Definitely a non-elite runner

[Davy Crockett]

Great points Jim.  One thing I have been really impressed about the ultrarunning culture is that so often the "winner" of the race stays for hours at the finish line congratulating and cheering all the finishers.  They aren't out doing victory laps, cool-downs, pacing, etc.  They are taking the time to encourage the finishers and getting to know them.  Karl Meltzer is a great example of this.  Also Jose Pacheco and other true elites in the sport.   Us "non-elites" don't feel like we are in a different "class."  To Sasha's credit, I saw him greeting many runners as they finished Ogden Marathon.   I know he does a ton encouraging others.

Finishing is a victory for all.  Defining classes in running doesn't seem useful to me.   Setting individual goals and reaching for them do.    Anyway, Sasha certainly has the right to only endorse races that fit his desired criteria, but I must say, that the criteria struck me as "elitist."   Races for the elites, not really for those who just enjoy running....makes me want to avoid any of those type of races.

[Josse]

It is obvious to me that people don't care to use this way as an endorsement, other wise there would be other races advertised than Sasha's own race.  It is silly to think you can control the way someone wants to put on their own race, they are to passionate about what they believe a race should be.  Besides there are other race guides that do the same thing and they don't have to conform to any kind of rules or regulations.  
All of us want to be recognized for what we do but the reality of it all is we don't, I don't get high fives and money for doing an excellent job of being a mom.  But I do get the satisfaction of looking at my beautiful children asleep in there beds every night before I climb into bed and collapse from being so tired.  I think this is all just a little silly and most people like to race to have a good time and there is nothing wrong with that.  If you want to be recognized as the top elite runner in Utah take an add out in the paper or put your face on a bill board.  The fact is some people will still won't know who you are, because they fill there time with other more important things.  I don't think everyone knows who the MVP is in basketball this year or last year, or who the world champion jouster is for 2009, but I don't think they care and just happy with there own accomplishment.  I love to run, I love to race, and I love to be fast but I don't like people to tell me how I should do it.

[Marion McClellan]

The time standard is elitist.  It is a race.  He or she who shows up and wins a race, WINS THE RACE!
Also, it should be universally recognized, that anytime people get together to be active, it is a really a GREAT thing, under ANY circumstance.  That is what is important.
Sasha absolutely has the right to support any race he wishes, 100%.  It is unfortunate that you (Sasha) can't see that you "standards" tend to demean and negate the honest efforts of other racers/runners/directors that you have declared sub-standard.