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Author Topic: Training for my second marathon  (Read 5385 times)
Shane
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« on: June 24, 2009, 03:31:23 am »

I'm looking for some guidance from people that are much wiser than I! I just completed my first marathon (Grandma's in Duluth, MN) this past weekend. I was hoping to run 3:30; however, the combination of 80 degree weather and cramping led to a 3:53. I realized that although the hot weather hindered me, I was not prepared enough to face the challenges of running a sub 3:30 marathon. I trained in cool Minnesota weather and faltered because I was not use to the heat. I followed a 17 week program and put the miles in (up to 47 a week). I did not however challenge myself with tempo runs or speed work after the first month. I feel this was a limiting factor in my performace during my marathon.

I signed up yesterday for the Des Moines marathon in October. That gives me a couple of solid weeks to recover and about 16 weeks to train. I am up in the air as far as a training program to follow, I want to challenge myself more and cross train to see if I can run a 3:30. I need a workout that incorporates speed and tempo work. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Runner's World 3 day a week program with 2 days of cross training? Also, I was weight training my upper body and core, but I would like to work my legs with weights, but don't want to hinder my running performace by making myself very sore. What exercises, reps, would you suggest? If anyone has a program they would share or can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks for reading.
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 08:15:01 am »

Shane- I read your race report a few days ago and have been meaning to put together a response.  First, congrats on finishing your first marathon, esp. given the less-than-ideal weather.

I'm a bit limited in giving you advice since we can't review your training for this marathon, seeing as you just joined the blog.  But I know we can help you break 3:30 and even much faster than that.

First, your plan to rest/cross train this week is very wise.  Once you can run without (much) soreness, start mixing in some short runs.  By the end of 2-3 weeks after the marathon, you should be back up to full training again. 

16 more weeks to train before Des Moines is lots of time.  My primary suggestion would be to slowly build your mileage as much as you can- 47/week is good, but I think you will really start to see big gains by hitting consistent 60 or even 70+ miles/week (if you have the time/health for it).  Doing this requires running at least 6 days a week for most people.  I don't think you'll find many fast runners on the FRB who give much weight to the "Runner's World 3 day a week" type of program.  It's good for beginners to help them finish a race, but doesn't help people meet their full potential (unless you want to be a triathlete with the bike/run).  To run fast, you have to run a lot.  There are no shortcuts, no 3-day-a-week routines.  Cross training can be used to supplement your running, or once in a while in place of an easy recovery run (such as post-marathon). 

As for weight training, I'm not the guy to give good advice about that.  I don't do any.  Some people do some.  In general, I believe some solid core training can help, and limited upper body (but you don't want to bulk up with "dead weight" you just have to carry around the marathon).  I'm less sold on the benefits of lower body work- some might like it, but I think running provides most or all the training your lower body needs to run fast.  It's really a personal preference, so see what works for you.  But I can guarantee that you will see bigger speed gains if you spend the extra time running rather than doing lower body lifting.  If you have time for both, great.

Specific training advice- first, build up to 60 miles/week or more if you can.  At that point, you can start to add in some tempo/speed work if you want (though more mileage is still advised if possible).  Paul Petersen has introduced many of the FRB team members to the concept of Big Workouts.  See this post: http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,1076.0.html
Lots of training programs have your speed workouts be rather short runs, with the thought being you need it short so you can run fast.  BW are different- they have some of your longest runs be your speed ones, to better simulate what you experience during a marathon.  Examples are 15 mile run with 3 miles tempo and 8x1000m repeats, or 16 mile run with 8-10 mile tempo.  Very tough workouts.  All other runs are E-A-S-Y, with one long run per week.

Let me know if this makes sense or if you have other questions.  Feel free to ask more in the future or to check in again for guidance.  Best of luck in your recovery and future training.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 08:19:04 am by Jon Allen » Logged
AndyBrowning
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 09:58:58 am »

Congrats on your first marathon.  I recommend buying Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger.  There is a training plan that maxes out at 55 mpw which might be good for you going into Des Moines. 
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Paul (RivertonPaul)
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 10:08:24 am »

Jon and Andy make good suggestions.  One thing that really helped me was consistently running and then blogging, as well as commenting on others blogs so that you have some accountability and motivation.  Whatever the plan.  I think consistency is key.
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dave rockness
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 01:22:32 pm »

ditto the above...also, seek out folks on this blog who recently achieved a goal you are presently seeking.  You can sift through what they did for 16-weeks leading up to their "breakthrough race" and learn from their progress.  Also, take advantage of the "training review" section to seek advice from the more experienced runners.  I can attest to instant progress that can be made from a workout shifted from "finishing a marathon" to "racing a marathon".  I ran my first marathon last May in 4:12 and with the help of this blog ran 3:10 by October.
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Shane
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2009, 11:18:02 pm »

Thanks for the advice! I checked the Advanced Marathoning book out from the library and I think I'm going to try the up to 55 miles/wk program. I really want to push my aerobic capacity and the program seems to do that. I am hoping that I can run 3:30 or a tad under this October and qualify for Boston next Spring. I will hopefully be starting graduate school next summer or fall and will not have time to train like this until I am done in 2.5 years. So I would really like to make a push to get there in a year!! This site is great, thanks for all the responses. Also, what do others take for electrolytes? Does anyone suggest the endurolyte capsules?
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 05:07:34 am »

Endurolytes, Nuun, E-caps, S-caps... lots of choices.  I have recently started using them for ultramarathons, but never needed them during marathons.  I guess they couldn't hurt, but I would be surprised if you regularly needed them during your training, unless maybe you do your long runs in hot, hot weather.  As for which brand- personal preference.  Endurolytes are light on sodium, though.
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Shane
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 05:51:37 am »

Thanks Jon. My buddy was curious if they would have helped when we were running in the 80 degree heat at the marathon last weekend. I think anything would have helped on a day like that!

In the Advanced marathoning book it has general aerobic runs with speed work. When is it best to do the speed work if it is a 7 mile run with 8x100 m strides? After five miles, and then have a two mile cool down?
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Sasha Pachev
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 11:20:40 am »

Shane:

When training for the marathon, speed work is most helpful after you've run some miles.  However, at this point in your training I would not sweat the  details of speed work. You need to build a solid aerobic base. Running fast occasionally is a good idea, but it will not be the main driver of your improvement. From your picture I can tell that you are a healthy young man. A healthy young man like you is rarely limited by his speed until he reaches around 3:00 in the marathon. 7:00 mile from a neuromuscular perspective for a guy like you should be a jog. The reason it does not feel like a jog now and that you cannot do it for 26 is because you lack the aerobic support. So we fix it by running a lot of miles, as many as you can without getting overtrained/injured. Once you start pushing your neuromuscular limits in long races, it is time to work on raising those limits, and we do that through speed work.
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Jon Allen
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 11:39:05 am »

Yes, Sasha is correct that base work is most important.  Like I said in my post above, I would suggest a consistent 60+ miles/week before you start any significant speedwork.

In that book, he is refering to doing the 8x100m strides as the "speedwork" portion.  I generally do them during the run (i.e. just do 20 second pickups at various times as you go), but some people like to do them at the end of their run, maybe back and forth in front of the house.  Strides are fairly relaxed, so it really doesn't matter when you do them.  I don't view them as "speedwork" speedwork, anyways, just more of a pickup.  I think of speedwork as a long tempo run, or repeats on the track, etc.
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David S
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2009, 12:49:09 pm »

I am training in Austin with high heat and humidity.  I am a furnace, too, that is I sweat copious amounts.  My shorts and socks can be wrung out after a run.  I use these electrolyte tabs and they are the best that I have found: http://www.vitacost.com/Trace-Minerals-Electrolyte-Stamina-300-Tablets
I take 3 before and 3 after my runs. 
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Shane
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2009, 08:57:51 am »

Thanks for all the solid advice. I will work on building up my mileage and not sweat the details!
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