Pace for long runs - marathon training

[Stacy O]

Hi everyone!
I'm trying to qualify for Boston, but am concerned about my long run training.  Right now, I do my long runs with my running buddy who is significantly slower than me (she prefers to run at a 10:30 mile whereas I prefer around a 9:00 mile for long runs).  Instead of killing her on these runs, I have been running her pace.  Is running this slow on long runs setting back my marathon training?  I should note that I only do long runs with her, so my speed work and other runs throughout the week are at the proper pace.

Thanks for your help!

[Sasha Pachev]

Stacey:

There are several options that will allow you to train with your friend without sacrificing your conditioning:

a)  Run the entire distance with her, then add another 3 miles at 8:00 pace.
b) Do mile pickups in the middle at 8:00 pace every 20 minutes or so, then jog back to her.
c) Take off with 3-5 miles to go and try to maintain 8:00.

Some thoughts for your friend. If she has to run 10:30 pace, maybe the length of the long run is too long for her. I would recommend cutting the distance to whatever she can cover comfortably at 10:00 pace until she is more fit. The idea is that there is a certain cutoff that is not very much fitness related after running stops giving running benefits, and I believe that cutoff to be around 10:00 from my observations. I have observed the following pattern - if a runner is already fit enough to go sub-10:00 comfortably, he quickly gets in shape by increasing the mileage, and improves his PRs in all distances by a large margin. But if he is somewhere in the 11:00 range, not much is happening for him no matter how much he runs. The way out of that trap, I believe, is to run 10:00 pace for as long as you can (even if it means you have to take a walking break), and increase the distance as the fitness increases.

[jeff]

I like heart rate as a guide.  Unless you are over 60-65% of max I am not sure you progress much.  Never mind tempo and speed work which should come later.

[Stacy O]

Thanks for the advice.  I forgot to mention, my friend is training for a half, so her long run requirements are less than mine.  So I have been running 7 or 8 miles before we even meet at around an 8:40-8:50 pace.  I think what I may try this week is running 6 or 7 before we meet at that nice 8:40-8:50 pace, run the 8-10 slow with my friend and then 3 at the 8:00 pace.  That will get me the mileage I need and I will be tired as well .

As for changing my friend's pace... unlikely I can do that.  She has some training plan that tells her to run 10:30 pace which she follows religiously.  Also, she got a Garmin watch for Christmas so she won't let me sneakily up the pace.

[Sasha Pachev]

Stacey:

I do not know if an opinion of a 2:23 marathoner with 26 years of running experience carries any weight for your friend, but I'll share it anyway in case it may otherwise be of some benefit to others. One of the most common causes of underperformance is the religion of so called training plans. It is not possible to write an effective plan even for a month. Yet you see thousands of runners that claim they must do a certain workout on a particular day regardless of how they are feeling, how much sleep they got the night before, or how they responded to the previous workout. There is also a belief that there is magic in the plan - if only you do some magic combination of workouts and hit them at some magic target speeds, you will supposedly get some incredible benefits.

Here at Fast Running Blog we have observed on may occasions that when a runner discards the "magic" training plans and actually starts training consistently , the difference is about 30-60 minutes in the marathon. The magic is not in the plan, it is in getting out the door, and putting in the miles with a humble attitude.

Moving on to the specifics, based on my observations of runners on the Fast Running Blog over the time of its existence, I maintain that 10:30 pace is of little training benefit for a runner regardless of his level of fitness. Meaning that if you cannot maintain a faster pace, it is better to run less at this point, or take walking breaks, but still run sub-10:00 when you do run. This is not the case at faster paces. Slowing down from 8:00 to 9:00, for example, is a good idea if it means you are able to increase the mileage significantly without adverse effects. But when we get slower than 10:00 it is way too close to walking, so the muscles do not develop like they should even if there is still a solid aerobic development component. And distance running has a very strong neuromuscular component to it. Neuromuscular stagnation makes it impossible to use the aerobic fitness, thus you never improve past that 10:00 mile pace barrier. The only exception would be if the runner is overweight, and has the potential of becoming lighter. Then 12:00 pace is more like 10:00 for the muscles, and they will develop. Then the weight comes down, and everything is good.

[Davy Crockett]

I am also against training plans.  Oh, I might have a training plan or goal for a week.  But I let the plan change depending how I feel.  If I skip a day or sleep in because it feels like I should, I do.  Chances are, the next day I totally make up for it.  On my blog I admit that I tend to mock the training plans, "Today, my plan calls for a 15-mile plan at such-and-such pace."  If I followed such plan, I would go nuts and not enjoy running.  My crazy training "plan" for my next 100-miler in three weeks was 128 miles last week, and this week lots of tempo runs to try to PR a 10K Saturday.  Crazy way to train for a 100?  Perhaps, but I'm smiling doing it and still getting faster.  My plans or rather lack of plans help me stay away from injury, even at the ripe old age of 52.

As far as the benefits for running 10:00 or slower?  Perhaps not great benefit for a fast marathon, which this thread is about, but for an ultramarathon, great benefit if they are long training runs.  For ultra distances, I would much rather run than walk, even if it is slow.  The wear on my feet is less, and it feels much easier.  When I chalked up 187 miles during my recent 48-hour run, there was a ton of slow running going on rather than walking.

[steve ashbaker]

I agree with Sasha he pretty much said it all.  I would add that perhaps it may just be better to go on your recovery days with her?