Fast Running Blog

Okay, yes, I am posing this question mainly because I like being on top of the mileage board.
Is it fair to post your biking mileage on the mileage board of a RUNNING Log? Could there be a separate entry for "alternative exercise" which tracks those other miles but keeps them separate from the activity that really counts?

I have to second Katie. I'm all for the importance of cross-training but I've ridden centuries before. So unless you want to start seeing the mileage board top 500 miles per week I would drop this feature or come up with an alternate board for total time exercised.

I will admit that I agree.

We have to depend on the individual's ability to properly count his mileage. If somebody has a just_miles template and decides to count his biking miles at face value he will be high on the mileage board and there is nothing we can do other than sending him a message. If you are bothered by somebody being above you on the mileage board due to improper accounting, send him a private message.

Sasha, The people are logging their mileage properly. For some reason the mileage board is counting cross-training mileage toward total mileage...

I would think that we would suggest tracking crosstraining mileage as what the running equivalent would be.  For example, Benn rode 30 miles yesterday and it took him 2 hours.  He is injured and doing his best to stay fit.  He should probably count that as 14 miles, or what he could run in those two hours.  This isn't an issue for those who do elliptical or stair stepper for crosstraining, if you go by minutes then convert to miles.  We don't want to downplay that he did do two hours of exercise though.  I think cross training miles should be included in the total miles for the mileage board, but not allow biking one mile to be equivalent to running 1 mile.  Those who are injured are punished enough by having to do cross training.  Most of us don't chose to do much of it.

Michelle, Don't get me wrong. I agree why add insult to injury. Also, I agree that cross-training is VERY important, though I am one who has not done it since college. However, I think for some of us (me included) we are curious were total running mileage puts you in the "grand scheme" of things. Specifically, I find it difficult to compare apples and oranges. I think it would be fine to have TWO total boards one for miles run one for exercise done (with whatever conversion people agree on). I think the lifting that Paul and others do should be looked at as well and I don't know how you would even begin to convert it to mileage. So I propose a 1) Running only mileage board and 2) Total time training board.

I always struggle with this one.  I don't mind counting crosstraing as mileage when I am injured but I would like it seperate from my running miles.  I like to know what I have ran without minusing my crosstraining.  As for converstion I count 10 minutes of crosstraining is = to 1 miles of running.

Hey everyone. Sorry everyone for causing stress with the mileage board. The last thing I want is to cause a revolt because I was careless and didn't even think to convert my miles in the first place. After reading a few articles where there have been various disputes about what correlates a biked mile to a mile run, I've decided that for my purposes .33 repeating will work. As it is extremely hilly terrain here, with usually 2 hills per mile, I don't think the 4:1 ratio is representative of my effort. A lot of triathletes use .3 when converting, but I noticed a lot of them also do a lot of flat riding or stationary bike riding which is much easier than actually scaling the hills in real life. In addition, since we have wind and such to take into account I think it's pretty good to use 3 miles biked = 1 mile ran? Let me know if I need to change something further.

Again, I truly am sorry for causing any problems. Your arguments are legit as I'm not even a runner right now. I didn't even realize until Michelle made that comment that the xt miles actually count in the overall running miles. Sorry guys and gals. Hope my conversion helps.

Benn

"Truckin' like the Doo Daa Man"

Maybe we should convert everything into swimming meter equivalent, since those are the slowest miles.  That way, the triathletes would look better...

Did I miss something? Do we get awards now for our mileage board rankings?

Ya didn't you hear top runner for the week get a bag of my delicious, hearty 9-grain ceral.

Paul, No. But I do think we should get gold stars.

I think number of message board posts is way more important than number of miles run. That's why I've got three gold stars under my name.

Hey, I just noticed that I have 4 stars- Cool!  Apparently I am the only "Sr. Member" on the discussion board, outranked only by Sasha.  It is glaringly apparent to any who know me that this rank is not based on age, knowledge, good looks, prowess, speed, humor, or meaningful substance in my posts.  Therefore, it must be based on eating ability!  But I won't complain and will take the stars from whatever source I can!  After all, I did put down 3 bowls of salad, 4 breadsticks, and every last bit of my Shrimp Primavera at Olive Garden last night.  Yummy. (By the way, I really do highly recommend the primavera- delicious, big portion, lots of shrimp and veggies)

Either that, or the stars are based on the amount of time I waste, er, spend, on the forum during the day...

Paul, I'll trade you 2 of my stars for half your running ability!

That's fine, since I can't use mine anyway.

I hate to bring up Athleticore.com again, but they do have a good system for tracking all kinds of  "alternative activity" and this is the fastRUNNINGblog.  I have confidence that Sasha will figure it out.
And how come I only have one star?! Being "star" deficient is enough reason for me to climb the mileage board to try to soothe my ego.

Benn, don't fret it and don't like you did anything wrong, just tracking your workouts the way the system allowed.  Anytime you create "measure" you can create controversy if you don't look at what is behind the numbers.

Jon, hey, don't you work for a living or do you just comment on the Forum? ;-)

Katie, know that you are back amongst the bloggers, I am sure you will earn more stars! 

Katie-Not only one star but it also calls you a newbie!  Better start typing!

I watch the mileage board for for months I didn't realize there was a second page, so I would try hard to just keep on that first page.  Now that I know there is a second page I am not quite so frantic.  Still there's nothing like being on that first page. . .

The only time I make it onto page 1 of the board is Sundays.

That was the standard I used for biking. I found that it was pretty accurate on the road but not on a stationary bike (like the electronic ones, not actual stationary cycling), where I could mess things by getting my RPM's up way high for a few seconds every minute or easing the resistance. I used to be able to "run" the equivalent of a 19:00 min 5k on those exercise bikes with much less effort than on a real run.

I figure if your going to make something equivalent to running, do it with as much of the same enviroment, same courses, same effort as a run.

Converting cross-training miles to running miles helps me get past injury recovery.  I don't care about the mileage board, but, would like to see the converted running miles for myself in my yearly total of running miles.  I put a good effort into my cross training and take a conservative approach to conversion.   Maybe an (*) next to my name would alert mileage board watchers to ignore my stats.  "Not a real runner"       

Stay Kool, chill, B of BS Rools out

Not to beat a dead horse but I wanted to bring this up and try and get some closure on it.

Brent, I am not calling into question your “runnerhood” there is no doubt in my mind you are a runner.

What I am bringing to question is the point/purpose/whatever of a mileage board.
I would say most runners are competitive and we each have our own goals. For some it is qualifying for Boston, for some it is making the trials, for some it is making a living, for some it is getting a PR, for some it is losing weight, for some it is just having fun, and the list goes on…
I am one that actually does it for all the above. The competitive side of me likes to find challenges, be it beat one of my friends here on the blog at a race, get a new PR or be on the first page of the mileage board. However, if the mileage board is not defined, this takes away one of my goals. I have never been the top person on the mileage board and I am fine with that, I know my body isn’t ready for 120 mile weeks. However, during the winter months being on the first page with 70-80 week after week helped keep me going. That isn’t to say that I wouldn’t have put in the miles anyway but it was an additional goal that helped push me. I know we can’t judge ourselves against others as there is always going to be someone faster, stronger, etc. However, if that is the case do away with the mileage board altogether. The blog could grow to the size that we have 20 people capable of running 120 miles a week and I get pushed to the 3rd page even if I ramped my mileage to 100… Whatever, have at it. I hope that happens. However, I do think that on a blog called the fastRUNNINGblog there should be guidelines and alternatives to suite everyone’s needs…
All this being said I could just be being a baby and if that is the case let me know that is why we blog to hear other people’s opinions. However, a blog that has a section called “bragging” makes me think that others will concur with my opinion about keeping at least one board pure and adding alternatives for those who desire. So keeping in mind that we are also in a democracy and I was curious to see what you all feel and if there is a majority that feels one way or another. So I posted a poll in the feature wish list section (http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,348.0.html)

My 2 cents:

I think the mileage board is useful for your own improvement and analysis with other runners. I don't think it's useful at all as a competition. In my mind, there are 2 scenarios where the mileage board is useful, and it serves its purpose as it is. Those 2 scenarios are:

1) I would look back over previous months at my own mileage to see how much I was doing before a good race and how much I was doing before I got injured, etc. Of course, I don't need the mileage board to do this, I just need my blog entries and personal mileage totals.

2) There are a few of you on this blog that I'm at almost the exact same level with in terms of race performances. If I notice that one of these individuals suddenly has a breakthrough race, I'm going to go to the mileage board to see what kind of mileage he/she was doing that elevated him to that next level. For example, Cody just had a great 2:43 performance at Ogden. I am now going to check out his mileage on the board and see if I can use similar numbers to boost my own performance at my next big race.

Personally, I don't enter cross-training mileage in my blog, but I would if it became a significant part of my workout. I would use the .3 conversion that Benn mentioned, because that is going to help me later on when I do analysis for sceanarios 1 and 2 above.

This is a runner's blog, created by a dedicated runner, used primarily to inspire running improvement.  The mileage should be strictly running.  Maybe I'm a purist, but that's my vote.

Ok, I can't resist the temptation to reply, because I want to know if I have any stars, and I want to see my "newbie" status.

I think this is a running board/blog and the only #'s that should be tallied are running #'s.  I guess it would be nice to see how many miles/meters someone is putting in, in addition to the running, but the total for the RUNNING millage board should probably only include "running" miles.

Just my 2 cents.  :)

I have to say just running.

Well if people are really having a problem with it I guess I can take down all my mileage, including the converted ones. All I know is that like today I did 13.7 miles of incredible hills in 57:30 and was sweating profusely. My converted .33 mi running to biking conversion only gave me 4.57 miles. Let me just say that biking is just as hard, if not harder than running, and that the 4.57 miles converted running is worth a lot more than 4.57 miles in my opinion. Idk if people are really that up in arms over it I guess I'll just blog on a triathlete site. But I don't know.. just seems really unsportsmanlike for people to say people that are injured can't blog. It's not like we asked for the injuries that set us back.

Benn you are not the only one who does this.  So this is not focused on you.  This whole thing has to do with the super fanatics who like to see their name up on top on the mileage board. (which I admit I like to see my name on the 1st page, but I really don't care if someone is above me with biking miles.  Because I know they are biking miles).
I think you should blog during injury, it gives you something to look forward to.  I started this blog when I was injured and going through one of the hardest times in my life.  It really helped me get through it and back to where I am now.  So keep doing what you are doing and don't feel bad about it at all.  People are people and if they want to see their name on top they can write it on a piece of paper and tape it at the top of their computer:)

I wouldn't worry- just leave the miles as-is.  We're not trying to make anyone feel bad.

If you look at some elite athetes they use other things such as biking, swimming, yoga, weights, and other things to help them achieve their level of running.  Don't think running is the only thing you need to do to improve and stay injury free.

I second Josse and Jon. You need to do what it takes to get and stay healthy. That is the only way you can hope to run better. If that is only doing bike and swim miles working up to a marathon so be it. Don't take things on this blog personally. People are just stating their individual opinions as you are now. The point of the mileage board discussion is to get differnet points of view. I like comparing apples with apples and that is why I spoke up. In my view this discussion has nothing to do with what training one should or needs to do but how we track it and compare it. Keep blogging, keep logging and keep improving. Injuries wear on you both physically and mentally. My last injury I was out for three months. I only wish I had the devotion to have done cross-training. I didn't I just became a slob and it took me longer to recover. You are on the right path...

This is my last little plug on this.  But I think we need to support people, like Benn, who are using crosstraining as a way to recover from injury.  Or when people just use crosstraining as a way to make them a better runner.  Because we never know when an injury is learking around the corner and all we can do is log biking miles.  You might feel differantly then.

I know this is an old topic but I am injured and if I can't blog my cross training miles I won't do it! I will lay in bed and say whats the point, so the blogging helps me get out of bed and help keep my fitness while I'm injured. I cross train with an elliptical glider and I convert 10 minutes on it to 1 mile and I am clipping along at a pretty good pace! Some of these runners who only want to win the mileage board race seem to need a little bit of humble pie and realize that we are all trying to achieve the same thing; and that is to become better runners!!! I think that if someone is moving up the mileage board and is achieving it by running and cross training then more power to them:-)

This is just my two cents:-)

Clay I think most folks on the blog don't have much problem with logging cross-train miles if they are converted intelligently. I think the 10 minutes = 1 mile is about right, I do the same occasionally like today when I wanted to do some biking rather than easy running just to give my legs a break from the pounding.

I think what bugs people the most is when some bloggers log their bike miles at face value (i.e. I biked 30 miles so I log 30 running miles), which becomes pretty much meaningless/useless as far as looking back on the mileage and trying to gauge their training value.

It all comes down to prefrence...when I was off for injury the first two weeks in june, I still cross trained for at least 1.5 hrs a day (biking, pool running, elipitcal) but didn't log any of it as running miles because I wasn't running. I just did it that way because that was about the same amount of time I was training before the injury. I don't really care if others log everything all up though as miles. That's their choice.

I would have used the Triathlete trainer's log since it allows you to put bike miles at face value and keep tabs on them without them influencing the running miles total.. however I guess I upgraded too high and it is no longer an option for me to change it so now I have to make do with conversion in the xtraining column. My main concern is just being able to tally up just how many miles I've biked this year.  Maybe I should make a separate cycling log? What are everyones thoughts on this? It stinks but that way I could still keep tabs on how many miles I am biking I guess. All this conversion is getting a bit confusing!

ALso, I understand people's annoyance at certain runners that log bike miles at face value. Kind of disheartening to see someone cheat to get the top of the mileage board and steal the glory away from a guy that ran a 100 mile race the other week. What a great representative of the running community and comraderie there.

This reminds me of an argument about global warming.

I personally think it is laughable to record biking miles on a running board. Here's something to keep in mind, for everyone.

We are all looking for respect, looking for recognition, looking for validation that what we do is noted. Whether it be work, running, physical attributes, etc. The problem with recording biking miles is that it discounts the runners who are attempting to attain recognition for their mileage accomplishments. People will feel slighted (and they probably are) when things like this happen.

Or maybe it's just a cyclical thing?

How come cross training miles show up on the Mileage Board anyway.  This would solve the problem.  Then cycling miles can be entered without converting to "running" miles.  I see nothing wrong with logging all of your fitness endeavors.  Whether it be cycling, swimming, push ups, crunches, or core exercises. 

Change the programming to display running miles only and all will be well on the blog....until the next disturbance !

Of course I no idea how difficult it may be to reprogram it.  If it turned out to be a large undertaking I would not blame Sasha for ignoring it all together.

This whole discussion is pushing me in the direction of getting rid of the mileage board altogether. I do not want to encourage runners to go for recognition on the mileage board. There is only one type of recognition - run fast in a race. Never forget that. There is no recognition for speed work, long runs, mileage, heart rate, average daily run pace, number of times you run per day, number of miles you put on a pair of shoes, number of people you pass during a weekend run, or the number of training partners you have dropped in a workout. You do what it takes to make YOU fast and you leave the other guy alone. If you have a matter to settle with him, race him. Base mileage is essential, but how much and in what combination varies individually. Do not lose the focus.

I am very concerned that too many people are taking the mileage board too seriously. Your team privileges do not depend on your position on the mileage board, and I will never offer money or any other award to the top ranking mileage boarder. If anything, more often than not being too high up on the mileage board means you were stupid enough to have run more than you should, or as in Cheston's case, the count was inflated. I do not want to see any resemblance of striving for position on the mileage board. Strive for position on the Top Runners list instead.

From now on I will ignore all messages of the kind "Runner X is unfairly ahead of me on the mileage board". The moment you even think that you've lost your focus, you are starting to care about what does not really matter in the end. This just wastes time. The time you spend writing that message should have been spent helping a less experienced runner. The time I spend replying to those should have been spent improving the blog and helping less experienced runners as well.

Sasha- I certainly understand your frustration.  And I agree that we should not worry about "so-and-so is ahead of me" on the mileage board.  Personal satisfaction and enjoyment from the joy of being able to run should be all the reward we need.  Like they said on Cool Runnings: "A gold medal is a wonderful thing. But if you're not enough without one, you'll never be enough *with* one."

I would vote that you keep the board, though.  My primary reason is that it makes it very easy to do a quick check on where many of my friends and teammates are in their running.  From just one page, I can get a feel for how much they are running.  If I notice they are not running much, I can go to their individual page to give encouragement or to see if they are injured/sick.  It takes much longer if I have to go to all of their pages individually.  Just my two cents.

Sasha, I'm sure I am part of your frustration and I am sorry for that.

My argument is that if you take a bunch of competitive people and put them together they will be competitive. This should not come as a surprise. However, I do not use the mileage board to see who I'm ahead of or behind of. I use it the same way Jon does. I look at it and like to see all the familiar faces around. If I see a new name I check them out or if I see a name is missing I track them down to find out if something is wrong. The whole key to this argument is that some standard needs to be enforced.

I would go back to my initial suggestion on the poll I put forward earlier this year and if you want to cater to the broader audience for your "world domination" I would suggest not only keeping the current Running Mileage Board, but also adding in a Biking, Swimming, and Cross-training board. I think this gives everyone something to be happy about and feed their competitive edge.

In this case I think the way Steve put's it is best "We are all looking for respect, looking for recognition, looking for validation that what we do is noted." I also agree with Scott though that "If it turned out to be a large undertaking I would not blame Sasha for ignoring it all together."

However, if that became the case and you chose to continue having the mileage board I continue to stress that this problem will not go away unless you filter it in a way that makes the total reflect some kind of standard that means something.

If like you say "There is only one type of recognition - run fast in a race." Then why have the mileage board, and I agree get rid of it. However, why have the counter on the top of our blogs then. There are many aspects of this blog that are set-up in a way that promote competition and recognition in many other forms than just how fast you run.

I know that for the vast majority on the blog they can run faster but they cannot all be as fast as Paul, Seth, Katie, or Michelle. So they pick more attainable goals on their way to getting faster. I agree that the argument and the degree and amount of time wasted on this particular debate has been out of hand for awhile now. I know I myself have wasted a good 3 or more hours on this topic. My wife has started to intervene in a way that she thinks the blog is bad for me. I’m a compulsive person though and if I feel strongly about something no matter how minute I keep at it until it is resolved. This is a bonus in the marathon but a bad personality trait when it comes to things like this.

In the end though, something needs to be done about this. By the share volume of replies and number of people that have commented here and on Cheston's blog about the topic in general this obviously matters to many people. I’m sure most people don't care but it is obvious that the few of us that do care feel very strongly about it. Good luck with whatever decision you finally make (removing the board, filtering the board, or adding alternatives). And as always thank you for the blog and dealing with us all when we are being whiney children...

You have insult my honor! I challenge you to a 100m dash! Nothing like a good old fashioned footrace to settle things. Wasn't that a Seinfeld episode?


I'm more concerned about global warming, war in Iraq, and healthcare reform. But if Obama or McCain came up with a good plan to fix our mileage board crisis, it could potentially swing my vote.


Sure, get rid of the whole mileage board. Get rid of the whole blog too. It's entirely too controversial.

Paul, seeing as you are still partly injured, right now is my best chance to beat you.  I challenge you to a duel tomorrow!  Because if I beat you, I will somehow be a faster runner than you, or a better person, or more of a man, or have the hairier chest, or something like that.  Right? 

Oh, and don't forget about the state of Social Security and the national debt, offshore drilling, housing, Guantanamo Bay, and a new national speed limit...

A new national speed limit ( :o). Get your laws off of my gas guzzling...

I don't care about Social Security, other than I wish I could opt out. I already have a house. The others I lump into global warming / alt energy sources. But really, the more I think about, all I really care about is the mileage board. Curse those bikers! AAAaaagggh!!

I must have not been paying attention lately.  Now I am listed as a "Vocal Lurker."  Almost sounds like something I may need to arrest myself for.

The one's you really have to feel bad for are the swimmers/tri-athletes!  They train for hours in the pool and only get a few miles, at most.  They should be the ones complaining about the runners messing up the mileage board!

Verbal lurker, what do I have to hit to be there?

just blab your mouth off alittle more Steve and you will be there! ;D




Hey we can't help it ;)

I ride a bike to work and drive a truck & '77 firebird too...can I be excused?

We can be concerned as much as we want about things until we finally realize they were nothing to be worried about at all...

Jay Sherman: And you must be the man who didn't know if he had a pimple or a boil.
Homer: It was a Gummi Bear.  

Don't get rid of the mileage board!  That is one reason I blog!  I want to see how many miles I run in a week, month and over my very first year of running!  I don't give a hoot about what everyone else is running, but I do care about what I have done!  Please don't let a few ruin it for the whole!

Kim, Don't sweat it. You'll still have your totals on your blog. Keep up the good work and don't worry about us bad apples entertaining ourselves with minutia.

Since Katie has left us once again for a blogsite that we shall not name :-P does that mean in the winter I can log my bike miles counting triple to make up for it?! :-P