Fast Running Blog

Ok, I think there is enough bloggers that we can form several good pace groups at St. George. So feel free to use this to coordinate plans.

I think we have a good group that could hit the first half between 1:16-1:18 so I propose a first half group to target this range. I think the following could jump in this group:

James (MonaFlash)
Jeff (jtshad)
Kory
Cody
Me (ArmyRunner)
Dustin
S Browning
Chad
Bill (BC)

I know all in this group are capable looking at their training. Are there any others? Let us know if everyone wants to plan to run together with this goal. I am thinking 1:17 first half but definetley between 1:16-1:18.

I propose another pace group for hitting about 1:35-1:37 at the 1/2 - staying together after the 1/2 based on how everyone is doing.  I think that Brent is planning on running with me, but any others that are shooting for this time?  I had previously considered running with the Clif Bar pace team, but I am not going to try for 3:10, and want to run faster than 3:20, and would actually prefer to run with a group of people I know (at least through this blog).

I get fired up looking at Ted's pace group.  I don't know if I'm in that kind of shape to run that fast right now, but I guess it would be better to go out and try and fail, than be left with wondering all winter "if only I had tried to go with those guys"

I've read various statements on energy savings for running with a pack, anywhere between 1.5% and 6%. It might be similar to what you get on a treadmill, plus the psychological benefits. In 2005 I had the choice of running a bit "out of my range" and stay with a pack of 10, or run comfortably but by myself. I chose the pack and PR'ed by 9 minutes, and placed higher than I ever dreamed.

I figure a pack is very important for the first 14 miles of the race, but once you hit Snow Canyon, all bets are off.

I always look forward to getting "Paul's Perspective" on topics and this helps ease my mind a little on this pace group idea.  A couple of things I enjoy reading about on this forum are Sasha Science and now Paul's Perspective as I would like to call it.

I'm in for the pace group, Ted. I think Chris Rogers may also be in that range.

I would love it if one year I was able to get in with a group this fast - maybe a couple years down the road . . .

Ted:

I think your group should split. You should hit no slower than 1:16 in the first half, and take anybody with you who has enough speed/guts to be there.

James - if 3:10 is not in the cards, the only way to run 3:20 may very well be to go out with the 3:10 group. One thing I am quite certain about is that you are very unlikely to negative split unless you run way slower than your potential. Go out with the fastest group whose pace feels comfortable, and do not be afraid to drop 3:10 group if the pace feels too painfully slow. On the other hand, I am not 100% sure the official pace groups adjust for the profile of the course, does anybody know if they do?

I'll try to put together the standard B pace group. People on the blog I think should be there:

Logan
Dave Holt
Steve Ashbaker
Clyde
Mike Kirk
Bob Thompson

Additionally, I will invite Jeff McClellan, Matt Harmer, Iain Hunter, and Mike Vick to be there. Mike Dudley will probably want to go with the A group, but if I'll ask him just in case.

The plan is to play it by ear, but lean on the faster side, low 1:11 through the first half, but no faster than 1:10:40. This works as a compromise between the different ends of pack - the guys that say B, but think maybe A and the ones that lean towards 2:25, but want to be able to sleep in peace until 2012 Trials window opens knowing they've honestly done their best. St. George can be survived if you start a minute faster than what you ideally should, and that minute will be a lot easier on your body when you know you are on pace for OTQ, and running with a pack, so if you pay for it at all, it may be no more than 30 seconds. On the other hand, if you get to the half in 1:11 and your horses are neighing, you can easily run standard A. James Lander did that last year.

It is OK if somebody just wants to fetch a ride to Veyo or a bit past it then back off. Even if you cannot take leads, it helps when somebody is there breathing down your neck. This is essentially what I did last year. I was not ready to run OTQ, and I knew it, but I still went with the pack. We were all together going up Veyo. I was with somebody who ended up running 2:18  with more than 7 miles into the race, I ended up with 2:25:32, and I do not regret in the least bit that I did not run 2:24:50.

To put another plug for Paul's Perspective, I was right there with him in 2005, he dropped me even though he thought he was out of his league, and I do not regret being there at all. I do not think I could have run any faster otherwise, but even if  I could, I would not trade that pack experience for maybe a minute faster.

Last time I ran with the official pace group, they were staying right on pace, the only place they adjusted for a bit was Veyo.  Were you saying you think I should go ahead and go out with the 3:10 pace group with Clif bar as long as I can and then either speed upor slow down based on how I feel?

 
Ted, what's your finishing time goal?

I see a full 10 minutes between some of these people.  It may work, but more likely I see the group splitting into two.  There will those who are shooting for low 2:30 and those who would be happy for 2:35-2:40.  I could name names (I am in the slow group), but that is not the point.  My only fear is to go out too fast in that pack and blow up on Veyo or after.  I do see the benefits of the pack but I do think that two of them is a smarter way to go.  But on the other hand, I would love to hit 1:17 at the half and still have gas in the tank for another.  The only way that will happen is in a pack. Hmmmmm

Hmm, 1:16 - 1:18 I guess I won't know if I can do it unless I try.    I wish I had experience on the course.

Kory- maybe this is too slow, but...

Are there any people out there that are going to finish in the 2:45-2:55 range? I consistently hit this, and I do the first half in about 1:23-1:24. So I'm looking for a slower group than the 1:16-1:17 group, but faster than the 1:35 group. I have another guy (Chris Pope) who's going to run it in about 2:55. I'm right about 2:50 this year. Our first half should ideally be 1:24.

Craig G
Chris P
...

Anyone else?

Dan (http://dan.fastrunningblog.com)  Should be between 2:50 and 2:55.

Craig:  I'll probably stick with the 1:16 - 1:18... I've always have taken the conservative way maybe now its time to have confidence in myself and go for it.  I can always back down.   I know that mile 7 through 11 will be the real challenge with the steep climb.

Yes, I would agree with you. Go for it.

The only steep climb really is Veyo - what is that - 1/4 to 1/2 mile?  The rest is gentle uphill with some flat portions, IIRC.  Clyde or one of the other locals could give us a better idea, but I remember in 2004 thinking that Veyo was not that bad.  Especially when a month before that I had run a 1/2 with a 2-mile nasty uphill the entire way.  I agree with Chad too - go for it Kory.  That seems to be Sasha's advice to me as well - even if I don't hit 3:10, shoot for it and if I bonk, I bonk.  I will have given it my all.

Well, that is a good question. I guess I am not 100% sure. Sasha has been telling me to shoot for 2:30, which I would love to run but am just not sure I'm there right now. So I guess I have multiple goals as follows:

1. Under 2:40 but hopefully closer to 2:35 even if the wheels come off.
2. Be in a position to go after a low 2:30s time at the half and see how things turn out. Without much course knowledge I am thinking a 1:16 at half would put me in position for the 2:30 mark if all is going well and even hitting 1:17-18 would put me in a good position to still be sub 2:35. I am not sure so this is mostly going with what others have told me.

So I guess I am going with the Kory approach of I will not know unless I try. Sasha keeps saying 1:16 at half should be the plan so I guess that is what I need to go for. If the group wants to split in two that is fine but I do think the guys listed are all within reach of at least a 2:35 and on a good day even faster. Cody, you can run faster than you think! I also really think that the pack running has the potential to be a big performance booster. For me at least it allows me to stay relaxed for a much longer period of time and I think it helps with efficiency as well. We can set something up where we lead quarters, 1/2, miles or whatever but it does seem to break it up nicely.

I guess we can make final plans at the pasta party. I think Kory, Jtshad, Chad, James and I are willing to give it a go. Right? I also think Bill and Chris R. will jump in. So who else? Dustin, Cody, S. Browing? Heck if everyone joins in we have a pack of ten and that does not include any others that just jump in with us at the start.

I have yet to back down to a challenge, so I am in.  I think I can hang in there for most of the race and if I have a good day and there is some good race day magic, hang with you guys until the end.  Who knows until you try...  That will be quite the group!  I am getting excited.   

I'm in even though I'm probably one of the slower guys in the pace group, who knows could happen.  I also think Steve Hooper will join us, Bill Campbell is probably a 2:50-2:55 guy, and Steve Olsen would probably be closer to Dave Holt than our group.  That is just my take on some of the St. George guys.  We've done some pretty good 20 milers the last few weeks on the course and Veyo hill isn't that bad, it is true you have a few miles of gradual, rolling hills once you get on top, but really not that bad.

I think James Winzenz was asking earlier today about the Clif pacers, I ran my first marathon ever in St. George in 2004 and I ran with the 3:10 pace team.  It turned out to be a great experience, the pacer was right on or under each mile, kept us motivated and reminded us about staying hydrated and getting gels all that stuff I had no clue about as a first timer.  Anyway, at mile 22 I thanked him for his time and pushed it home to a 3:07, everybody that started out with the pacer got a Boston qualifier.  So I would just say go for it!

I will give it a try and see what I can do.   I think it can only strengthen you if you just try to push yourself.  I know running my third marathon in 5 weeks is a concern for my performance, but running in a pace group will boost the performance.  Like Cody said I'll try to hang on.  If you don't try then you'll kick yourself if your conservative and do well.  I think Ted and Jeff  could really knock-out a good time.

Everyone always misreads the SGM course and thinks Veyo is the key.  Veyo is a tough hill, but it is the next 3+ through Dameron that are the key hill miles.  This section is where your body will be tested - can it recover quick enough from the dramatic volcano to roll back into race pace for the next section.  After topping out at Dameron (which seems to happen three or four times because of the rolling nature of the terrain) it's all downhill, literally!

I may be in no-man's land (or no-woman's land), but I will be pacing for about 3:07 if I am running on my own, but if there is a pack just trying to break 3 hours or 3:05ish I would like to join them.  I would hate to run alone, but I am not sure there is anyone around me.

I agree Dave, that is the point I was trying to make.  Veyo is not that long of a hill, you get past it pretty quickly.  The hill at the White Mtn. 1/2 marathon (if you ever want a really good challenge, try it out!) was much tougher than Veyo.  Brent and I (we conferred on our blogs) are both going to shoot for 1:35 for the 1/2 and see where it gets us to the end.  If we are feeling really good, we will keep up the pace.  Otherwise we will ease up a bit the second 1/2.

I'm with Michelle, caught in the middle of the pace groups.  I'm planning on coming in just under 3 hours.  Probably will run 6:45's for the first 7 miles, run 7:20's for miles 8 and 9 (Veyo), 7:05-7:10 through Dameron Valley then drop down to 6:40-6:50 starting at mile 13 through the end.  I've never run with a group before but imagine there are a lot of people with a sub-3 goal.

Andy look to hook up with William Campbell (wildbull) on the blog he should be right around 3 hours or better.

Ted, I am looking forward to running with this group.  I have a friend from here in SE Idaho who would probably run with us (Brett Hill, former steeplechaser at USU and a good runner). 

I also know a couple of guys coming down from Boise who would be in the 2:50 range (John Jackson is one, ran a 2:47 last year).

Look forward to hooking up at the pre-race bash to set the groups up and get psyched for the race!

I am in, and I think Ted is right, everyone mentioned is capable of running in this group.  I understand some of the concern about hanging on if the pace looks a little fast, but it is a race and all of us should be willing to hang it on the line.  There is no better feeling than letting it all go, whether you hit the times or not, it is about knowing I could not have gone any harder!!   I look forward to running with everyone, some of you I have not met yet, this should be a lot of fun!!

Michelle:

No woman's land may be good if there are not any ahead of you, or close behind. Guys prefer to be in no woman's land for sure. I think we just have come up with a term that means the opposite of getting chicked - run in no woman's land.

I think you should go with Andy and Wildbull (Bill Campbell), at least give it a try and see if the pace feels too hard or not. If you can get behind them and run relaxed, stay there regardless of what pace they are going.