Fast Running Blog

My goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympic trials, so I won't be focusing on any Utah marathons, but rather a flatish sea level marathon outside of Utah.  With that in mind, I am trying to find flatter races to help me with my training.  Here's my 2009 tentative racing schedule I've been able to come up with so far.  As you can see, the whole "run non-aided races" goal breaks down from end of July-mid August where I have three aided races in a row.  I'd love to pull two of these out and replace with flat races if you all could think of some in that time period.  I also am not aware of any races Oct-Nov which will help me to train for a December marathon, so any input there would be awesome.  Feel free to also give me any additional advice.  I'm all for critical feedback  ;D

May 9 - Kanab 10k – Mother’s Day Saturday
May 25th – Memorial Day ½ marathon (Ogden – flat)
Jun 13 – Bear Lake ½ marathon or 10k (flat)
July 4th – Freedom Festival 10k or
July 11th – Canyon to Canyon ½ (out and back, but high elevation)
July 24th – DesNews 10k
Aug 9th Provo 1/2
Aug 23 – TOU
Sept 6 – SF ½

If I know I can hit a 2:46 – Medtronic Twin Cities Marathon Championship Oct

If I could only hit 2:46 on a great day by Oct, then TOU (workout) September 19th

And

December 5 - St. Jude Marathon

Sadly your title says it all, ha ha. I have the same problem I will move to Utah in July from pancake flat Chicago and need to find some good flat reaces because it will take a while for my body to learn to handle the pounding of a downhill race. Unfortunately every big race in the state is big because Utahns either want to pad their stats or run a downhill race because it is easier than a real race.

I disagree with that statement in many cases Dallen.  Utah has downhill races because we are in Utah! 
"Duh this is the Rockies!"
For a race to grow, show off the beauty of the area - thus Utah's mountains and canyons.  Yes we all like fast times - but don't come from Chicago and talk about fast times and easy races on Utah's courses!

One thing to keep in mind Dallen, you are not only going to have to adjust to "pounding of downhill races" when you move to Utah.  It is a very HILLY place and most cities are at altitude.  Believe me, the altitude will be a much bigger concern in terms of adjustment from Chicago.  Not all Utah races are downhill, and the ones that aren't are MUCH slower than a sea-level flat course (probably 10-20 secs/mile adjusting for both hills and altitude).  I think many of the downhill races in Utah just try to equalize for the altitude (NCAA guidelines give women athletes somewhere between 50-60 secs adjustment for a 10K in Salt Lake City -- slower people will slow down even more than that). 

We are veering off topic  :-\  For good or for ill, there are lots of downhill races in Utah.  Anyone know of good flatish ones I am not considering?

Michelle, I do now of some, but they might be a bit far away for you (Mexico). But wish you the best on your training program & hope to see you in 2012 London Olympics !
 ;D

The Great Salt Lake 1/2 is flat but boring, so I hear.  And I know a small-town 10k in Tremonton that is an out-and-back.

The Bear Lake races had issues last year (no port-o-potties, bad distance, few aid stations), but they were first time races and I know the race director was committed to making them better this year.

I don't know if the GSL 1/2 still exists. It used to be a circuit race, but was not last year, so I don't know if that means it's not around anymore. But it's certainly flat and legit (except for two hills at the end).

Also, both half marathons in Moab (Canyonlands Half in March and The Other Half in October) are pretty much fair and somewhat fast courses. There is some drop, but I think it stays within IAAF guidelines, and definitely USATF guidelines.

A few other suggestions:
Heart of Holladay 5K, mid-June: semi-loop course, some hills but you can run a decent time. Circuit race.
Draper Days 5K, mid-July: used to be downhill, but it's down an out-and-back. Circuit race.

If I were you, I would consider dropping some of those half marathons. Yes, they are non-aided, but you will also destroy everyone there and it's kind of a waste of a race. Instead, perhaps consider running the USATF LDR circuit. This would allow you to focus on 5K/10K during the summer months, work on speed, race against serious competition every time, and win quite a bit of money, which can fund your marathon trips. Just an idea, take it or leave it. I found the Circuit to be very beneficial the year I ran trials. No race was easy, as I was always going against good competitors, plus I raced 5K/10K more than I would have ordinarily, which took me out of my "comfort zone" and helped me gain some mental toughness down the stretch. The Circuit is really suitable for a fall marathon, as most of the shorter racing is over by August, which gives a couple months to focus on long runs and marathon-specific training.

I stand by my theory. I lived in Utah a few years ago, and saw firsthand that the courses with the big dropoffs are the popular ones. Usually this drop-off is larger than what would make the race "fair".

Examples:
Provo river half marathon - the entire race is scenic and at a fair slight downhill, but they threw in those first 3 miles just to make it fast. Canyonlands Half marathon is the same.

Hobble Creek, Des News 10K, St Goerge. Not even close to being fair.

I agree that these coures are scenic, but I doubt you will find many serious runners who do St George because it is Scenic. They run the race because it will hopefully give them a massive PR.

For the record, Canyonlands drops a whopping 75 ft in 13.1 miles, which equals 1.08m/km. The IAAF standard for world records is 1m/km. So Canyonlands is almost a record-eligible course. It easily meets the criteria for Olympic Trials qualification. Sorry to split hairs, but I don't think it's fair to even mention Canyonlands in the same sentence as those other races. :P

You are correct about Canyonlands, it is flat enough to be considered fair, actually harder than fair with the elevation. I mentioned it because of the fact that the entire elevation drop happens in the first mile. Take out that mile and it is a flat race. Either way, it's one of my all time favorite races.

Oh. Yeah. That first mile is awfully fast. I always get sucked out way too quick, settle into a too-fast pace in the middle miles as a result, and then bite it the last half.

Is the 2:46 the time you need to qualify for the trials?  And when do you need to do it by?  Isn't there an A and a B thing?  What is that?

Paul - interesting idea.  I've never done a circuit before, sounds like a big commitment.  I'll look into it. 

Burt - 2:46:00 is B standard.  2:39:00 is the A standard.  The first opportunity for ladies to qualify will be at the marathon championships at Twin Cities, other than that race in 2009, the window for qualification opens up in 2010. 
 

It's not too bad of a commitment. You only have to run 8 races out of 12. And if you win the circuit, plus win a bunch of the races, you'll easily come out with close to $2K. By  the way, the new circuit schedule was posted yesterday:

http://www.usatf.org/assoc/ut/ldr.htm

Dallen:

The reason the first 3 miles of the Provo River Half are down a steep grade is pure logistics. If you started it anywhere else there are issues with permits, extra fees for police protection, etc. Same deal with Hobble Creek.

GSL 1/2 is officially dead.

We do have some non-aided not terribly slow races:

Provo City Half - loop course, starts and finishes by the Provo Tabernacle, certified
Spanish Fork Half - non-certified, but mile markers on it were good, hopefully right distance
SLC Track Club Winter Series - 5, 10, 15 K - out and back courses, almost Chicago pancake flat
Earn Your Turkey 4 Miler - loop course in Orem
St. George Half - loop course

We do not have good marathons that meet USATF qualification standards. But we can organize one. Now that they said a marathon can drop 300 feet, I think with some creativity we can make a course here in Utah that will match St. Jude for a good altitude runner. We just need to find a Canyon that gently drops right out into a small flat valley. The key is absolutely no uphill, uphill is bad at sea-level, but is absolute death at altitude. Any ideas?

This could be the Fast Running Blog marathon. I do not care if we have to do it in the middle of nowhere, run the loop at the bottom of the canyon 15 times, and if we have only 10 people. In fact, that may be good if it is small. Certify the course, set up pot-luck "elite" aid stations, load the field into the Fast Running Van, drive them up the canyon, and let's have fun see if we can qualify. Those who are off pace stop at 15, call it a long run, and try again in two months. Who says we cannot do that?

BTW, you can really learn to run at altitude with proper training. Renato Canova's 26:30 Kenyans run 27:05 or so at 8000 feet in 10000.

Actually, a marathon can drop 450' and still be a Trials qualifer. Basically they set the criteria to equal what Boston drops, in order to include Boston. So that gives even more wiggle room.

seems like a good idea. i definitely am interested. when i think of "flat" in utah i think I-80 westbound. driving out to the SLCTC race over the weekend reminded me that flat does exist in utah, but you have to travel to the middle of nowhere to find it.

This thread reminds me of an old thread:

http://fastrunningblog.com/forum/index.php/topic,340.0.html

I live in Cedar City, so of course I would want one down here.  I have one that we could lengthen a bit from a 21 miler that I do sometimes for training.  It runs from the north end of Cedar City down to Kanarraville and New Harmony at Exit 42.  There is a Texaco gas station there.  I could make it start at about 5600 ft. and end at 5150 feet.  Just a thought, but it is a good run.  Any hills on the route are very minimal.

I think if you wanted to make the fastest Trials-eligible course in Utah, it would have to be in the St. George area. It is the lowest elevation in the state. It would just be a matter of finding something flat enough.

Logan and I have kind of been "talking" about starting up a USA marathon championship down here in STG. You'd have to qualify for the event. Sub 2:40 for men and 3:00 for women. We have a really flat course that is out in the fields and does have a small section of the Painters course in it. If we ever did get going on it the event would be great. Kind of a middle ground for those who can qualify for Boston but may never find themselves running a OTQ time. This is just the nuts and bolts... we actually have a lot of other plans for it. Big purse, hot showers, and all the other things that would make it wonderful.

You're gonna need an addition on the house if you are going to include hot showers clyde...

My  vote right now is for the Washington Fields area in St. George. I think runners training at 4000 feet or higher will run there only a minute slower than they would in Berlin.

Clyde, Logan:

a) Can you find a way to drop exactly 450 feet into that area as gradually as possible and with no rolling? If you need to test an idea, use the Course Tool.

b) Take wind patterns into consideration. I've run in that area several time, and remember the air being perfectly still. Did I luck out, or is it just well protected by the mountains?

c) Do know know anybody in the area who has the Jones counter? If you can get your hands on one you can do the certification work by yourself, and it will cost I think around only $30-$50 to file the papers. Jones counter is $90 on the USATF site.

Yeah we need to get going on this little project. Anyone want to help?

I'll sponsor you a set of really nice maps. I'd offer to do a website too, but there's no way I have time for that.

I might be able to help with certification of the course, but it would need to be a time that I will be down there.  It can take along time to do a full marathon, even on the best of courses.  When I did Painters earlier this year we started calibrating at day light and did post calibration after 10:30 at night.  We did run into problems with the course being short in the end and had to add a short turn around, but the end will change again next year because they are building the new off ramp there. 

Remember when you design the course to try to find a place that will not change too much over the years so you can keep a good course for a long time.

Michelle to get things back on track.  Circuit only requires that you do at least 4 races to be eligible for year end awards.  If you pick and place good you don't need to do too many, but we count your best 8 race scores max. and you gain sometimes important bonus points if you do more.  Down hill racing can benefit your turn over and can be used for training.  Use it as training, down hill running can really beat you up and put you on the verge of injury.  You can find plenty of places to do good long runs that are not too much down hill and your long runs should be the staple of your marathon training anyway.  Mileage and being consistant is the key to success.  Too much speed and too much down hill and you will not make it to the starting line.  Keep your goal in mind as a journey, it doesn't matter how fast you are in work outs if you don't make it to the startline.  Paul is right that the circuit can race you into shape, but be smart about it and race them with your marathon goal as your main focus.  Don't let them dictate or compromise your weekly training.  Rail trail up by Park City has some great stretches that is at altitude, soft trail and very mild rolling and can be a great spot to train.

thanks guys. We will call on both of your services at a later time. We are trying to design the course to be in Washington City limits. So we don't have to mess with any political crap from St. George City as most of the time they are a pain to work with. I guess then next real step is to get a good basic loop mapped out and then get the city on board. Keep in mind I came up with the idea but would love someone else to take the money and run with the idea... any takers?

That's the hard part. It's easy to be an Idea Man and spew out suggestions, but much harder to find the time, energy, and people to actually do something. Best of luck!  ;)

That said, first steps would probably be to talk to a few folks who are race directors. They will tell you the nuances and important things to do when setting up a new race. Then come up with a potential route (or routes), send me the info, and I will sketch up a map, which you can then use to help with permitting and planning. Get the permits, set up a website, and start some cheap, grassroots marketing. I think the first year could be mostly word-of-mouth and Bloggers supporting the race. Keep things as cheap as possible, no frills, and keep everything completely in the black. Kind of the trial run. Work out the kinks after the first year, prove that it's a fast course, and then try to really spread the word. Let the race grow slowly and organically. Take a look at everything Devine has done, and then do the opposite.

There's my stab at being Idea Man! Like I said, I can help with mapping (which leads to analysis that helps out with planning and permitting), but obviously you'll need a group on the ground in Washington County to really do the legwork.

You probably have as much free time as anyone to work on the race, Clyde, so it looks like it's your baby to run with! (pun intended)

Just curious, what time of year are you thinking?

Clyde's free time completely disappears in the next month. I think the burden falls completely to Logan. :-)

I would think early December might work for timing, since you wouldn't want to conflict with SGM or with hot weather. Mid-winter doesn't work, because most people living in the inter-mountain West are not in great shape due to bad weather and roads. That just leaves early winter or early spring. Early spring would conflict with Boston and SLC (for whatever that's worth). First Saturday of December perhaps is best for both weather and lack of conflicts?? We usually have pretty good weather state-wide through November, so it would be pretty easy to keep up training and hit a peak for this time of year.

Clyde will have plenty of time while the baby is sleeping.  Give me any routes you have in mind, I spend many hours driving around St. George while doing Driver's Education.  I'm always looking for a way to make the time go by faster.

Paul you got it right on the time of year. We were thinking late November or early December. Also that would be the plan to kind of get it rolling low key this year and kind of do a trial run with mostly bloggers. Then make some changes and really push it the next year. I have some time to spend I just need motivation to work on tedious things.
Dustin- Some of the course may be on the trial system so the drivers ed car might not be a good choice:)

Hey we take that car all over the place , I could just say some kid didn't know what he was doing.

I would love to see a race with a qualifying standard between Boston and the trials. I think a lot of people would turn out.

I don't know if you will be able to convince many quality runners to run a race at elevation. 2800 feet may sound like nothing if you live in Utah, but anyone that doesn't live at sea level would still feel the effects. A gradual drop would offset this somewhat, although it's tough to create a course that actually drops gradually. 

Let's keep it simple. I can design the course. Somebody in St. George could ride/run it to make sure it is the best. Then we need somebody to certify it. I expect it not to take too much time due to the fact that it is going to go around the same loop several times.

Like I said earlier, I do not necessarily want it to become a big race. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, there is nothing in the qualification rules that says you cannot certify a course yourself, and qualify racing your training partner. I imagine witnesses from USATF could be required, but this should not be a problem. We should not have too hard of a time getting somebody to watch it for a free trip to St. George. We may need to get USATF sanction which would cost a few bucks, but we can handle that. Maybe they'd give us a quantity discount.

I am looking at the smallest possible scale event. Anybody who knows anything about marathons will tell you it is a big challenge to be ready to race at top capacity on one particular day. That one particular day could be a bummer day. A week later you could run much better. Racing away from home is also less than ideal. Thus we need a perfect home course where we can try many times. Let us not forget, this is the most important factor. The smaller the scale of the race, the more times we can hold it, the more likely we are to see somebody from the blog qualify.

Having 10 guys that can make it to the half on pace and are willing to run even would be more than you would get in most marathons anyway.

Simple is good, but just don't forget to leave out the race day magic. Races need to be special; when races are reduced to just a time trials with your buddies, the magic is gone. Personally, I run dead flat in situations like that.

The point is, there's more to a race than a route, and more to qualifying than just doing good training and finding a good course with good weather. Don't underestimate the intangibles.

Our vision is to create something a little different. It may never get very big but it would still be a special event. Where runners would have something to shoot for between Boston and a OTQ. That being said we still will try to keep it fairly simple at least the first few years for sure. Right now one of our struggles is to find a good place to start and finish the race that would have ample parking, and other space for the start and stop of a race. Once we agree on a place then the course will flow from there. As I mentioned before it would be really good to get the city of Washington on board as opposed to trying to fight them. Like the old song says "I fought the law and the law won".

Well I am very interested in doing what I can to help... Let me know what you want me to do Clyde and I will do it if I can. You be the idea man and I will be the tedious task man.