Fast Running Blog

I'm training for a BQ time in the Seattle Rock and Roll Marathon June 27, 09. (3:20:59)
I have seen big improvements just with increasing my weekly mileage and it's only been 5 weeks. I know I need to start increasing my distance at least one day a week if not more, but I'm wondering what pace I should be training at. It seems like if I expect to run 26 miles at an average of 7:38 that I should be able to run shorter training distances at that pace or faster with little effort.
Any advice would be appreciated.
http://rattletrap.fastrunningblog.com/

Mike,

For starters you need to vary your workouts (I see this week you did 6.6 every day). Make some of them 8 and some of them 4 for starters. If you're gunning for 7:38s you should probably be doing your 8s in the 8:15-8:30 range for now and maybe a touch slower on the 4 days. Eventually, you'll want to work yourself up to where you're running 6 days a week and your mileage should be approaching 50-60 mpw. Use the 10% mileage increase every 2-3 weeks rule. Exactly when your marathon is will determine how you should go about setting up your schedule. If you have more than 6 months than for now just work on your aerobic base pace and adding in miles. I qualified for Boston my first marathon. I had run for 4 months about 4-5 days a week in the 35-40 range. Then I took 3 weeks off and started active marathon training, running 6 days a week and eventually got my mileage up to nearly 70 mpw. I think I jumped up too fast, but my basic training looked something like this (I needed to run 7:27s -- I hit 7:19s):

Monday: 5-6 (7:45-8:00/mile)
Tuesday 8-10 (2 @ 7:45-8:00s, 4 @ 6:45-7:00s, 2-4 @ 7:45-8:00s -- as I got deeper into training, I tried to get my 6:45-7:00 paced miles into the 6-8 range with 1-2 on each side of it @ 7:45-8:00)
Wednesday (8 @ 7:45-8:00)
Thursday (8-12 @ 7:45-8:00)
Friday (6@ 7:45-8:00)
Saturday (Long Run every other weekend starting @ 14 miles and adding 2 miles to this every other weekend (I tried to hit my goal pace for the entire run -- I recommend instead that you go for 2/3rds of it at goal-pace with a warm-up and cool-down on each side). I made the mistake once I hit 18 miles of switching to 6 consecutive weekends of 18-22 miles nearing goal race pace. Instead, I recommend you stick to the every other weekend routine. On the non-long-run weekends I would try to do 12 or so with about half of it in the 15-20 seconds a mile faster range.
Sunday:  Off (I would recommend that you insert Monday's workout here at a slower pace than I did and take Monday off).

This probably isn't quite the best plan, but its what I did. As you can see I made a few recommendations as to how I would have altered my plan slightly.

Essentially, you should do a Long Run, a Recovery Run, a Tempo Run, and 3 Aerobic Base runs each week.

It depends on the day (how you feel) but marathon pace is not "little effort" in my book.  Comfortably hard might describe it better.

I agree with Eric's advice in general, but I don't agree you should drop to four miles a day on any day.  Instead I would do 6, 7,6,7,6,8, next week, then build up your longer days, so the next week do 6,8,6,8,6,10.

Regarding your actual question of pace, I would have easy runs 1-2 minutes slower than what you think your current marathon pace is (if you think its 7:45, then 8:45-9:45).  Then do long tempos at goal marathon pace (or current marathon pace if there's a big difference), and short tempos at 10K pace if they are 3 miles, and a couple of seconds slower per mile as you make your tempos longer (1/2 marathon pace for 6 mile tempos or longer).

In my opinion, you shouldn't base your easy running pace (or your speed session paces) on "what  you want to run" but rather based on what you "have run recently".  If you push it trying to hit a "magic pace" that you perhaps aren't ready for you risk injury or overtraining  - it may work, it may backfire and set you back.  If you are unsure of what your current fitness level is then jump into a race -- preferably a 1/2 marathon but a 10K would work too (5K's would not be as reliable of a marker for marathon fitness).  I think varying your daily mileage is the better way to train, not just because mentally it gets boring -- but because it challenges your body to go up and down in pace and duration.

I agree, Bonnie, but sometimes we don't all have the luxury of a previous race. Prior to my first marathon I had only run 4 races. A 5k, a 5 miler, a 6 miler and a 1/2 marathon. It seems to me in my general racing experience that you can add about 5-10 seconds/mile to your 5k pace to get your 10k pace (If I ran a 5k at 6:00/mile pace, I would assume that in 2 weeks I could go out and run 6:10s for a 10k, and that I could predict my time in reverse from a 10k to a 5k as well). Add 15 seconds/mile to your 10k pace to get your 1/2 marathon pace. Add 30 seconds/mile to your 1/2 marathon pace to get your marathon pace. That's just me though. I know others don't agree with this. I think its helpful though for those who haven't done the distance to see what they should be shooting for. There are numerous running calculators out there that allow you to insert a recent race time and distance and the calculator will predict a time for another race distance. The program assumes that you put in the appropriate training at the new race distance equal in effort to the one you used as a baseline figure. www.mcmillanrunning.com has a link to one such pace calculator.

Mike:

I think you are really more like a 2:55 marathoner, maybe even faster. With a little bit of training you can already race a 10 K on pace for a sub-3:00. Keep that in mind. You are a 2:55 marathoner that is out of shape that is trying to run 3:20.

The main obstacle will be fuel. 7:38 pace right now for you aerobically should be a just brisk jog. So the focus is on fuel. Probably continued aerobic training, in other words keep doing what you've been doing gradually increasing your daily run distance, will be sufficient to allow you to have enough fuel to run 3:20. But doing some long runs would be a nice confidence builder. Plus running 3:07 instead of 3:20 would be a nice surprise. I would suggest the following:

- increase your daily mileage to 8 a day
- once a week - warm up two miles, then run 7:30 pace until you can't, until your body tells you it is not healthy to run more, or until you've run 16 miles at that pace, whichever happens the soonest, then cool down a mile or two.

Thanks everybody for all the feedback and encouragement!
I am working on increasing my weekly mileage and I have been really anxious to get back to my long runs(I cut them out when I started training so I could run more days in a row without increasing my mileage too fast). Last week I finally ran an extremely hilly 11.2 miler and it felt great! This week I increased my regular morning run to 8 miles from 6.6 every other day and I'm looking forward to another long run.
Tomorrow I am running with a neighbor who's planning on a 17 miler. That should mesh pretty well with your advice Sasha, as I expect to be running around a 7:30 pace with him.

I have increased my mileage to 50+ per week now including the long runs on Saturdays.
It's getting a little easier each week, but I still worry that I'm too slow.
I only have 15 weeks left before marathon day. Should I continue to increase my mileage, start working on speed, or just stay the course?

I recommend still building base, increasing miles.  15 weeks is still plenty of time to add speed down the road.  If you want, you could add a few faster miles every here and there, or do a tempo once in a while.  But even at 50 mpw, adding more mileage will help you the most.  Once you are about 8-10 weeks out, then you could add some marathon-specific speedwork.  In my opinion, the base is more important, takes a lot longer to develop, and is a prerequisite to speed work. 

I guess I'm close enough now that I can move up to 60mpw and see how that feels for a while.
Most of my runs average about 10-30 seconds slower than my GMP. I probably put in a little more effort than I should for a daily run, but I just have to feel like I'm getting somewhere and it's been so cold lately that I don't want to be out there any longer than necessary :)

I am 10 weeks out from race day now and have worked my way up to 70mpw. My average pace is still improving each week with basically the same moderate level of effort.
Should I continue the same routine since my pace is still improving or should I be thinking about some more specific speedwork?
I think I may have just answered my own question, but I'd still love to hear if anyone has any advice for me.

rattletrap.fastrunningblog.com

Thanks!

Mike:

If you are still improving off base it means your muscles are still much stronger than capability of aerobic support. Speed work increases  muscular strength and neurological qualities such as the ability to recruit muscle fibers with more power and in a way that is better suited for running fast. But it does relatively little for the improvement of aerobic support compared to base mileage. The reason being that you cannot do nearly as much speed work volume as you can do base, and aerobic support develops primarily in proportion to training volume.

So you could get some benefits from speed work at this point, but they would be rather marginal. At the same time, a sudden injection of speed could cause an injury. Also, scheduled speed work often interferes with the base mileage volume either for logistical or fitness reasons, or often both. So two rules about speed work - a) Must not bring the base mileage down to the point of losing aerobic fitness and b) Must be introduced gradually enough to not cause an injury. a) for somebody who runs 10 miles a day or less applies as "must not bring the base mileage down at all".

What I would do is start with spontaneous pickups when your legs are itching to go. Maybe run fast for a minute or two, get the urge out, then run easy. Do not force it. Some days if feeling really good just for fun try 3 miles hard, see what you can do. But do not feel obligated to do any form of speed work just because the schedule says so.

I think you might be able to run in the 3:10-3:15 range by June, or who knows, maybe even in low-3:00, or even faster.

Another month has passed and my pace is still improving off of my base mileage. I plan to continue the same routine for the next 5 weeks since it's still working for me. I guess my question now is should I reconsider my goal? I don't want to bite off more than I can chew, but I don't want to sell myself short either. I've put a lot of effort into my training and I want to do my best in this race. I would appreciate some input on what would be a realistic goal for me in the Seattle Rock and Roll Marathon (http://www.rnrseattle.com/course.html) given my performance over the past couple months.

http://rattletrap.fastrunningblog.com/

Mike- I looked at your past 3 weeks of training.  You have averaged 65-70 miles, which is great.  You also did more than 300 miles in April, also great.  But most impressive is your workout yesterday- 19 miles at 7:13 pace, which equates to a 3:09 marathon.  And you even had enough at the end of the run to do a decent kick.  Honestly, I think a 3:10 marathon is very doable for you, and maybe, maybe, even sub-3.  For me, doing a 17 mile run with 13 miles at MP is a hard workout, and you seem to routinely average faster than MP on your long runs.  I think you are in much better shape then you think.

You have 6 weeks to go- now would be the perfect time to add a bit of speedwork if you want.  You could do some reasonable tempos (maybe a 14 mile run with 8 miles at 6:30-6:40 pace?), or even some track work if you like that (6x1mile at 6:20 pace?).  Don't go overboard (and take the next day very easy), but I think you have the base that a bit of speedwork could really add a nice touch on your fitness.  You can also slowly increase miles, but I wouldn't suggest getting much above 80 or 85 at most before your taper.  And try to get 2 more runs of 22-23 miles, if you can.  One rule of thumb- a decently paced 22 mile run is about what your race marathon time will be.

Continued consistent mileage, a bit of speedwork, and a little taper should have you primed for a good marathon.  If you really want a safe BQ, then go out a bit conservative (BQ pace) and just hold it.  But, if you really want to go hard, then I think you could aim for 3:10 or maybe even 3:00 marathon.  There is a small chance you blow up, maybe missing BQ entirely (though I doubt it), but you would likely be rewarded with a HUGE PR.

Nice training- keep it up.  By the way, your marathon PR is 3:47.  How many miles/week were you doing for that race? 

Ok Mike, this is probably really picky of me, but I looked at your blog and noticed something in your picture. Your left arm is swung across the front of your body. Not sure when the picture was taken, but for what its worth, if you're running with your arms crossing the plane of your shoulder regularly you are expending extra energy as well as slightly countering the natural drive forward. The long and short of it is, if you're swinging your arm across and into your chest throughout an entire marathon you're seriously cutting into your potential. Don't know if its something worth examining and working on or not. Could cut some time off by making a very simple change. One drill to work on this is to sit on the ground with your legs extended in front of you and crossed at the ankles and drive the arms like you would when running. Start easy and build to a tempo-type-pace arm drive. Focus on keeping your arms from crossing your body. Think hip to outside the ear, not hip to mouth. If you're doing it right your butt will begin to bounce off the ground rythmically. This is probably nothing, but what the heck, every little bit of feedback we can get helps, right?

Johnathan - I don't think I've ever done more than 40-45 miles per week training for my previous 2 marathons and definitely never more than 5 days per week. Running 6 days per week and increasing my base mileage has made a huge difference! I've decided not to do any serious speedwork unless my pace stops improving from what I'm currently doing which seems unlikely in the next 5 weeks. It might seem silly, but the closer I get to race day the more I worry about injury and I've invested too much at this point to take any chances with that. You seriously think I could pull off a 3:00? I'm thinking about maybe 3:10 and just that is a big enough difference from 3:20 that it would require committing to a much faster pace than 7:38 from the start.

Jeff - No offense taken :) I appreciate any and all feedback. My ego is not attached to my running. I don't even really consider myself a "runner". I just like to run and I want to do it better. That picture was taken at the 2005 Sound to Narrows 12k finish line in Tacoma. I finished in 1:00:26 and just missed my goal of 0:59:59. Even though I missed my goal, I still love that picture. I think it captures how I feel about running. I have another picture from the Portland Marathon finish line where my arms are in the the exact same position, my left thumb is even sticking up :) I will pay close attention to my arm movement on my next run. Little things do make a difference. Thanks for pointing that out.

Mike,

I've been following your progression.  It's very similiar to what I did last summer/fall in which I went from a 4:12 marathon to a 3:10.  Personally, my goal was to BQ and I went out with a 3:10-12 pace in mind.  I requested advice on the "training review" and Sasha thought I had a 3:10 in me.  On race day the taper made my legs feel awesome, yet I held back throughout the race not wanting to spoil a BQ.  I was a little spooked at mile 20 because I felt completely fine...was I going to hit a wall at mile 21? 22? 24?  The 3:10 pacer had a group that was beginning to fall apart and tried to latch on to me...I said, "no way! I'm just going for 3:15...not going to ruin things now!"  Stopped completely at the 20 mile station, took a gu and washed it down with 2 gatorades...my slowest mile on the entire run (8ish).  Ran very cautiously until mile 25 where I decided I was going to be ok.  Began to kick it in and actually ran my only sub-7minute mile, passing the 3:10 pace group (down from like 25 to 3-4 guys) and finishing in 3:10:30.  Could I have run any faster?  Quite possibly a 3:07 or 3:08.  But for me, just thrilled to get the BQ.  BTW- in Boston decided to shoot for sub-3 and crashed my way to a 3:13.  Regardless of strategy, I think you will hit your BQ.  It's up to you to figure out whether you want the comfortable or potentially painful route. 

Dave - Thanks for your input. Your blog has been a big inspiration for me. I started out thinking that a BQ would be a longshot at best for me, but I trained for it like I had it in me. Seeing your progress in particular gave me hope. Now I'm seeing a major return on my investment, and knowing that I will probably never have the opportunity to train at this volume again I'm tempted to really go for it. I value the support and advice I've received from everyone here over the past few months(although I haven't followed all of it) and I'm trying to temper my selfish temptation with some more of that advice.

Mike- I do think you have a sub-3 in you.  Can't guarantee that it will be this marathon, though- it might have to be one of those magical days.  Shooting for 3:10 sounds very good- don't go out to fast, just 3:10 pace the whole way.  If you hit mile 22 or so and feel good, pick it up and try to improve your time.

By the way, don't try to temper your "selfish temptation"- we all want to race to the best of our ability.  It's called fulfilling your potential, not being selfish.