Fast Running Blog

I recently watched the movie Without Limits.  It was enjoyable.  My poor wife didn't know he dies at the end. (*spoiler*) [Was I supposed to put the spoiler alert before I gave away the ending? (If anyone in this blog doesn't know who Steve Prefontaine is and that he died in a car wreck, they deserve to have the movie ruined for them.)]  I digress.  The following night I watched Prefontaine.  If you've seen both movies, which did you like most and why?

In each movie the actor portrays Pre a bit differently.  In Without Limits Billy Crudup plays a very confident, very cocky, always butting heads with his coach runner.  He knows he's the best, and he's not afraid to let you know he is.  In Prefontaine Jared Leto portrays Pre as very confident, but not as cocky.  He is always confident in his running abilities, but you see his confidence build in other things such as taking on the Amateur Athletics Committee as the movie progresses.  His relationship with his coach is more of respect than "I'm right, you're wrong."
My vote is for Prefontaine.  Although there were three F-bombs as compared to the two in Without Limits, Prefontaine is less suggestive.  That makes the movie more enjoyable for me.  They were essentially the same in every other aspect.

I've seen Without Limits online for free. Anyone know where one can watch Prefontaine online for free?

I've seen them both and I like Without Limits better from a strictly movie watching experience perspective.

With out Limits
1. The race scenes pump you up more. Maybe because of music or footage or most likely a combo.
2. I like the "Pre" better. Just a little more attitude
3. His girlfriend is hotter in WOL
4. Overall you feel more emotion through this film

Not to knock either one because I've owned both for years.

I have to give the nod to Without Limits.  It is a better "movie" if you know what I mean.  Like Clyde said, it had way better race scenes.  Like Burt said, Pre is portrayed as cocky in Without Limits.  That is exactly how he was.  He was a beer drinking, womanizing, run from the front kind of guy.

The thing is, if you read any books written by people that actually knew Pre, i.e. Jordan or Ken Moore, they will tell you that Pre was an arrogant, cocky son of a beech. Without Limits, while not being as "Hollywoodish" as Prefontaine is the true representation of that amazing runner.

I watched both over the last several weeks, and I have to say I do like Without Limits slightly more.  However, I did look up the actor protraying Pre from Prefontaine because I liked him, and he happens to be the lead singer for 30 Seconds to Mars, a band I love.  I knew he was an actor, I didn't know he had the supreme acting skills it takes to pretend to be an elite runner :)  That makes me like 30 Seconds to Mars that much more. Rock on.

I have wondered why Steve Prefontaine has received so much attention. We have had better runners, and better role models as well. Billy Mills, Frank Shorter, and Jim Ryun have won Olympic medals around that time. Prefontaine bragged about how he was going to win one, but never did. Yet Prefontaine by far is remembered better than the other three.  Perhaps because he was most Hollywood-like.

Perhaps one reason American runners do not do so well is in looking up to the wrong hero. Interestingly enough, our best US born marathoner (Ryan Hall) appears to be more of a Jim Ryun follower as far as role models are concerned. I do not think it is a coincidence. In the days of Prefontaine you could be of notice just off talent and impulsively hard training. Now that you have to race the East Africans that is not enough. You have to have your life in order.

 

Just for FYI,  Pre did not just run off talent Sasha.  He could not break a 5 minute mile in High school for two years.  Pre undertook a regimented high mileage program for several years even approaching Gerry Lindgren's level at times.   Steve was also larger and stockier than most other runners which put him at a distinct disadvantage but he made up for it with tenacity and mental toughness.  It showed in all areas of his life including his campaign against the AAU which he succeeded in abolishing.   

Steve definitely had talent combined with discipline.  He also had natural speed.  I'd have to look it up but running back-to-back 4:20 miles as a senior means he's talented.  He also broke 5 minutes for the mile his first year of running. Overall, I would have to agree that for the long haul, Frank Shorter is probably a better role model, but Pre was actually faster than Shorter at the 10K, Pre was the best American runner of his era, even though he didn't do much on the world stage.  As to the movies, "Pre" comes from the perspective of Pre's family and has their endorsement, it also has more of the actual Olympic Munich footage.  Steve was cocky, but after Munich he was also much more approachable. "WOL" is more Hollywoodesque--produced by Tom Cruise, and probably delivers the tenor of Steve's life better.  Who can forget, "If you can endure the type of training it takes to be a good runner... then you can endure that other absurd past-time, life."

Having just read Bowerman's biography, I would also like to add that the sauna scene with Bowerman holding hot keys against Pre's legs was actually a constant prank of Bowerman's to initiate his new runners.  Bowerman was also an excellent coach who actually helped create the jogging phenomenon in America and was the 1st to institute hard/easy training as a staple in the US.  Run, rest, recover, repeat.  There's a story of Ken Moore doing easy miles around the track of a local college and the coach came up to him and chastized him because his Cross country boys were killing themselves in workouts and looking forlornly at Moore running easy, Moore being a guy who would beat them by minutes in X country races.  Moore objected because he also did hard workouts but his easy days were easy.  It seems coaches at that time were of the Cerudian philosophy that you had to kill yourself every day to be good. 

Comparing Prefontaine vs Ryan Hall.

1500: 3:38.1 vs 3:42.70
5000: 13:21.87 vs 13:16.03
10000: 27:43.6 vs 28:07.93 - we do need to mention that Hall ran his 10,000 PR off marathon training without a taper.

And Prefontaine never ran the half or the full marathon. Hall has 59:47/2:06:17. Probably the best estimate of where Prefontaine would have ended up is Frank Shorter. So 2:10:30.

3:38.1 1500 is talent. Somebody who struggles with a sub-5:00 mile cannot get this with mileage. He cannot get this with speed work. You have to have the Quality X. It may not show in your first race, but it will in the second or third. Hall is good 5+ seconds off in the talent department. But his 5000 is faster. 10000 hard to say, but the laws of nature predict Hall would be around 27:30 if he focused on the 10,000, possibly 27:20. And in the marathon he is in a different league. But he is no legend because he has to race the Africans who have raised the bar. Nike did not raise the bar, Hollywood did not raise the bar, Runner's World did not raise the bar, the Africans did - those who are wise will learn from this. But Hall is at least competitive, he is in contact at 23 miles.

Are we going to have two movies about Ryan Hall and wonder which one is the better? I hope so. When we do, we will see a good number of Americans running 2:06 or faster. Because they will be looking up to the right role model. But somehow I doubt that it will happen. He is not sensational enough.

I also wonder how Prefontaine would have responded to the harsh reality of somebody beating him without having to bleed, and no matter how hard he worked or how much he left on the track, the competitor still does not have to bleed. Viren had to bleed to beat him, but Bekele can do 13:21 5000 more than twice in a row, Prefontaine would get lapped in a world-record 10,000 race, and not only by Bekele. A good role model should demonstrate a healthy response to this form of defeat. Otherwise, he is like the Superman in the joke that tells his drinking buddy there is a magic wind that would bring him back up if he jumped out the window.

Pre was fourth in the Olympics at age 21. He challenged the great Lasse Viren. Part of why people talk about him is they wonder what his potential was.

One thing that I admire about him from the book was that even if he was out late on weekend nights, he would always get up at 6 am the next morning and run.

I liked Prefontaine but didn't feel like it represented his personality adequately compared to what I read in the book. I haven't seen Without Limits, so I'll have to see if I can find it online.

Without alcohol, and with a cool head on his shoulders somewhere around what Ritz is running right now - sub-13:00 5 K, low 27 10 K, 60 minute half. Maybe a bit faster. But still maybe about 15 seconds behind Bekele in 5 K, 45 in 10, and about a minute behind the Wanjiru in the half. Competitive against top East Africans, but a bit behind the best of them.

My line of reasoning - to give the Tergat/Bekele/Geb/Wanjiru class of runner trouble you need to be around 3:34 in the 1500.  With proper lifestyle and training you can match their endurance. But with "only" 3:38 1500 it would be difficult to race them. So if Prefontaine could do something to run 1500 in 3:34 he could have gone further.

Some controversial food for thought. America will win the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when a world record 10,000 meter race is televised, the top American runner is in it, he does not get lapped, the commentators make a big deal out of it, and the station is able to charge for the ads as much as they do during the Super Bowl.

For what it's worth, I just finished reading Bowerman and the Men of Oregon, a biography of Bill Bowerman by Kenny Moore, and according to Moore, Without Limits is a more accurate representation of both Bowerman and Prefontaine, capturing aspects of both men's characters more accurately than Prefontaine.

My personal opinion over the last 7 or 8 years (since I first saw both movies) has been that Without Limits was a better movie, but I appreciated the added actual footage of Pre running in Prefontaine.

So when is that, Sasha? Haha, never??

Have read Tom Jordan's "Pre" and seen both movies. I actually did a comparison of the two for a film class as an undergrad. I don't think the instructor appreciated my "mocking" the film industry with all my runner garbage. She's also the only professor to accuse me of plagiarism when I tied for the best grade on a final exam. As if I was too "dumb" to score that high.

After seeing Jared Leto live in the 30 Seconds to Mars concert I went to a couple of weeks ago, I have to vote for Prefontaine for Leto reasons.  He is so awesome, the concert was awesome, his hair was awesome.  The band was staying after the concert to sign anything until all people got their signatures.  I asked Paul if we could stay and have my abs signed by the true Pre and to tell him he looks great as a runner and to ask him if he runs to stay in shape.   Oddly enough, Paul said no.

Chapter 27 Michelle.

Shut up Burt.

(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq326/BurtMcCumber/jared-michelleL.jpg)
(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq326/BurtMcCumber/leto-lowery.jpg)
I think it's great that you stuck by him, Michelle, even when he got fat.

Oh, my gosh, Burt.  You have entirely too much time on your hands.