Fast Running Blog

I think I've decided to spend my 2009 racing season working on the Utah Grand Slam. I know others have done this and it isn't advised if your wanting to chase down PR's but I think this will fit nicely into my goals for next year. I'll try to back off as much as possible but still maintain 60+ miles per week and kind of relax on the whole racing "PR" issue. Obviously I'd like to win the Grad Slam so I'll have to be in shape enough to run say a 2:40 at Ogden and so on down the line. This should be a nice little break from the 100+ miles a week and the constant stress of trying to improve. Then if I'm still in one piece by this time next year I'll try cranking things up again for one more push at a strong PR and possibly a OTQ...
So who's with me? How do we get going? What can I expect?
Most likely I'll do Ogden, Des News, Park City, and STG. I'll be skipping out on TOU unless something comes up and I miss one of the other races earlier in the year. I already know someone will try and talk me out of it and cation me against such a selfish act. However I'm 98% sure this is my plan. So your arguments need to be strong if you so wish to try.

Since you will be going for the GS win, you won't get to pick the 4 marathons that you run and will probably have to run TOU.  Wasatch Running sent out an email regarding the 2009 grand slam that said: "As we look to 2009, we would love to have your thoughts on what marathons you would like to see included.  A few new marathons have popped up in the state and we've thought about including some of them.  Some of the new ones are the Bear Lake Marathon, the Utah Valley Marathon, and the Little Grand Canyon Marathon.  Let us know if we should include some new ones or use some of the previous ones." 

I think that Ogden, Park City and St George will always be part of the grand slam but the 4th (or maybe 5th) is up in the air.  With your mileage base I don't think that it will be that difficult for you and you don't need to cut your training that much.  What you do lose is the sharpness from doing a lot of speed work because that is the one thing that is hard to do when you are recovering/tapering for the last couple of marathons.  The only argument that I could provide against it is that Paul won it in 2005 and was injured much of 2006 and Jed Burton won it in 2006 and I believe was injured for much of 2007.

As you're well aware, I ran the Slam back in '05. All my races and training from that season on are on my blog, and my mileage and times were pretty similar to your goals. In fact in ran it for pretty much the same reasons you want to: to lay low after a disappointing '04 marathon, not have any pressure on me, and learn how to properly run a marathon. I managed to do all this, especially learning the art of negative-splitting, which is essential to run the Slam. And I PR'ed at Ogden, and then again at St. George, so that was bonus. So I learned a lot from running it, but also left the season physically battered and broken, missed the rest of the fall, got temporarily healthy again, but then was injured from March - August of '06. This was after over a decade of completely injury-free running.

Would I run the Slam again? Not a chance. In the grand scheme, there is very little to gain and much to lose.

Clyde, you can achieve your goals of having a laid-back back year and relaxing on PR's without running the Grand Slam. If you want to run 60 miles/week, just run 60 miles/week, but do one or two marathons instead of five. The only thing you get from winning the Slam is a trophy and a gift certificate. And maybe some knee problems.

If you want an "off" season, but are serious about an OTQ attempt in 2010, it would be wiser to spend your time getting faster in the 5K and 10K instead of running 5 marathons. Work on your speed; this will help your marathon time in the long run. This would also accomplish your other wishes, as it doesn't take as much mileage to do 5K's and 10K's and it will be a welcome break from marathoning, with opportunities for PR's at other distances. And if you can improve to 15:00/31:00 for 5K/10K on legit courses, then 2:19 will look a lot less intimidating.

So there's my attempt to talk you out of running the Slam.  ;)

Andy that is interesting. I guess I'll have to keep my eye out for the new rules and things.
Paul- I know you said that you wouldn't run the Slam again. But is it a serious regret doing it in the first place or maybe something you'll always be happy you did once. I know it left you injured so that sucked but then once you got healthy again you had an amazing 2007 season.
I don't know... I understand that there is really nothing to gain but at the same time I'd like to win it just to say I did... once. However on the flip side I've also thought about doing just what you said and trying to improve speed in the 5k, 10k and half... but that doesn't sound very fun either.  ???

Do what paul said  ;)

Clyde:

The chances of making it to  the marathon without being able to run a non-aided 5 K under 15:00 are about the same as the chances of making it to the Kingdom of Heaven without baptism. Paraphrasing John 3:5, "Except a man shall run a sub-15:00 5 K, he cannot enter in the Olympic Trials in the marathon..." 

Work on your 5 K speed. You might have some dormant speed that could be woken up. At least you had some real speed in college. I would recommend starting with this - run a quarter in 65, jog 400, repeat until you've done 8 or until you cannot hit 65. Once you can do 8, increase the distance to 800 and work on being able to do 4 in 2:15 with 800 recovery. Then move it up to 1000, 1200, 1600. Get to the point where you can do 3x1600 in 4:40 with full rest. Then cut down the rest to 400 meter jog, then 200 meter jog. At his point you should be able to run 5 K at the target speed. Do so in a race, then up the mileage and try to make it carry in a longer distance.

Clyde: I fully understand (and completely relate to) the desire/need to set another goal right away but maybe right now is not the best time to make important decisions about what to do with your running next year. You've just come off of a very hard season of training and racing. You ran a very challenging marathon that wasn't exactly what you expected (at least as far as time, but you had an awesome race overall).  Take some time and run easy, have fun. Let the goal come to you.  It will come.  It's advice I'm hoping to take myself.

I guess I am getting into heaven without baptism. My 5k PR is 15:35.

   ;)

Of course, you have only run, what, 2, in the past 5 years?  On the same day?

Yeah, but isn't your 10K something like 31:15? That's equivalent (proxy) to 15:00.

I was wondering how we were going to tie 1 Corinthians 15:29 (baptism by proxy) into this, but Paul did it for me  :)

Guys thanks for the sound advice. I guess I have a few months to just chill and not really be focused on a running goal. It's hard because I'm really goal driven with my running so to kind of not be looking forward to something is kind of like a waste.
As far as the OTQ is concerned. I really don't have much of a chance at qualifying the way things are now. I think I missed the boat in 2007 at STG. But thats o.k. The thought of even trying a 5k at or under 15:00 just makes me hurt. I would like to work on my shorter distance speed. In Utah terms maybe work up to a 1:07 at Hobble or a 1:08 at Bryce in the next couple years.
I still may do the Slam though. It just seems like something to do "just once". Plus it's a good way to run some more of the Utah marathons.

Points for me. I've been baptized several times: once by sprinkling as an infant (Lutherans are into the infant thing), once by dunking as an adult (Baptists aren't in to the infant thing), and three times in college (14:56, 14:52, and 14:48). But never by proxy. I just like to say the word "proxy".

Solid commentary (and interpretation) on 1 Corinthians 15:29 here:
http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/28748/eVerseID/28748

For the record, I did not find the commentary very convincing. You can only do that much trying to figure out what exactly something would have meant in Greek that was written almost 2000 years ago, especially if it was just one sentence in passing. But, aided by the modern day revelation (which one may consider a form of illegal assistance :-) ), I am quite certain that the Greek word in question means "in behalf of".

And I am quite certain of the other meaning. I just wanted to clarify my belief, for the record.  ;)

Clyde, I think you should do whatever you think is going to please you and your family.  This coming year will present you with many new opportunities and probably different challenges than you've had in the past.  If you think running the grand slam or different marathons in Utah is what you need to do, than that is what you should do.  I guess, I'm of the attitude when it comes to running and training, I need to find races and set goals for events that I'm going to get excited about.  For example, I really enjoyed training for Boston in 2006 and the miles were easy to come by.  However, the last few years I've struggled getting excited for St. George, maybe it because we run the course so often.  Whatever, you decide just be smart, listen to your body, and try to avoid injury.

Paul:

I was curious to see how different translators understood the Greek word in question in 1 Corinthians 15:29 that is translated as "for" in KJV and checked several translations in Russian, and Spanish, and one in Ukrainian. I am obviously 100% fluent in Russian, fluent enough to read and converse in Spanish, and can read and understand Ukrainian to an extent, but cannot speak it.

One Russian translation used the word для which implies some generic form of service or a dependent relationship and is roughly equivalent to English "for". The other two used за which in combination with the grammatical form of the word for "dead" that followed unambiguously indicates the translator understood the word to mean "in behalf of". The Ukrainian translation used the word ради which in Russian means "for the sake of". At least in Russian, when you use that word it usually implies you love the person and are doing something out of your way to serve him, you normally would use a different word if there is no emotional bond or connection of some kind. If you dig a little deeper, the root of the word has something to do with making one happy, so literally, to make happy the one you do this for.

All Spanish translations except one used a safe generic word por, which, from my experience with Spanish, is even more generic than the English for. Spanish is not very rich with prepositions. So those do not say much, the translator played it safe. However in one he did not, and was more explanatory. It was called Biblia in Lenguaje Sencillo, or Bible in Simple Language, and it translated the verse as:

 Algunos se bautizan en lugar de alguien que ya ha muerto, y piensan que así lo salvarán. Pero si en verdad los muertos no vuelven a vivir, ¿para qué bautizarse?

Which translated into English (my translation, to be verified by somebody who knows Spanish better) would be:

Some are baptized in place of some that are already dead, and think that thus those will be saved. But if in truth the dead will not return to live, for what then be baptized?

Clyde,  In 2006 I did 6 marathons in six months and that was fun.  Last year I did 4 marathon's in nine weeks including my previous PR at St. George.  But I've had more fun this year of only doing 4 marathons spread out several months apart, because of how much my times dropped.  It's very hard to train running so many marathons so frequently, and it really isn't that relaxing.

You have a talent right now and your young (I would love to have your talent) ... you can still run 60+ a week and PR I think.  Like Paul said running 2 marathons next year and not putting pressure on yourself is a good approach.   I bet you'll even run better and PR, because there will be no pressure.  Your fitness level is incredible right now.   Running so many marathons close together will make you slower (trust me I know).  I would build on what you've really done this year with just less miles.  Clyde, I believe you have a great opportunity to really lower your marathon times because your so dedicated.  I don't want to persuade you to not do the Grand Slam, because it comes down to what will make you happy.

1 Cor. 15:29  is a public display that you've been reborn in righetousness and have repent from sin.  It's an out showing that you believe Jesus is in your heart and your sins have been forgiven.

Although I am by no means fluent in Greek, I have taken several courses + exegesis classes.  The greek term "huper" can mean "above" or "over".  Some scholars who taken it in this sense would say folks were literally being baptized "over" or "above" graves of others (perhaps martyrs of the faith).  I disagree with that particular use.  The greek term far more commonly means "instead of " or "on behalf of"...in other words, folks being baptized in hopes of covering others who were not baptized.  In a broader context, I have come to the conviction, through the study of scripture, that baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change (baptism by Holy Spirit). 

 Luke 3:21-22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened,

  22. and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased."

I believe also that the holy spirit lives inside of us.  That's why Jesus had to leave so the comforter/holy spirit could live within us and perform the works of righetousness.

Dave:

According to the LDS doctrine, 1 Cor. 15:29 is evidence that baptism for the dead was practiced by the early Christians at some point. In the latter days the practice was restored and is currently performed in our temples. We believe that while the physical ordinance of baptism is essential for salvation (based on modern day revelation as well as John 3:5), God will not deny salvation to those who never had a chance to be baptized merely for that reason. But at the same time, the ordinance is important enough for Christ himself who was without sin to subject himself to it, and therefore must be performed for everyone who at some point in his life reached the age of accountability and had sufficient understanding to discern between wrong and right. Thus the dead have a chance to either accept or reject their baptism that was performed on earth by proxy.

We also believe that baptism is a physical manifestation of an inward commitment to follow Christ. It serves as a signature on a contract where you commit to be faithful for the rest of your life.

Well, back to 5k times, according to Morman doctrine, I would definitely be in need of "baptism by proxy".  Clyde, on the other hand, looks as though he may get that baptism within his lifetime here on earth. 

Interesting diversity of topics here.

Clyde...it depends what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to improve your time, it is impossible to do that running 4, 6 or more marathons in a year. Your body simply cannot recover. Look at the elite guys. They run one or two marathons per year and fill the rest of their year with training and shorter races.

However, if time improvement is not your goal and you simply want to do something you find interesting, like a grand slam, then go for it. Just understand going in that you will not see improvement in your times. But if that isn't your goal, then you won't be disappointed.

Sorry to diverge from the ongoing scripture discussion.

Yeah if I did do it I would be just kind of doing it for fun and to chill out for the year. Then maybe go back into full training mode the year after. But guys just about talked me out of it tonight at running club. I had to come full Circle... get it?

Clyde you really need to just do what makes you happy.  It's your life and we experience different goals in our life that we want to achieve.  The best thing you can do to get your answer is pray about this until you feel in your spirit/heart what's right.  No matter what you decided your still a very talented runner.

One of the many reasons the Circle exists!

Clyde, you could probably win the Grand Slam running the marathons simply as training runs and not even racing them.