Fast Running Blog

Since the fall marathons are over, I have had lots of time to think about my goals for next year.  I would really like to break 2:30 in the marathon, and think the best way to do this would be to run consistent 80-100 mile weeks.  However, the more I looked at my life, I think doing more than the occasional 100 mile week is difficult.  Here is why-

If I do a 20-23 mile run on Sat, I still need 80 miles during the weekdays, which works out to 16 miles a day.  Including getting ready for the run, the run, potty breaks in the run, and showering/stretching afterwards, this requires at least 2.5-3 hours each weekday on average.

I am gone for work 11 hours every day (100 mile commute plus regular 8 hours per day), plus need 30 minutes in the morning to get ready
2.5 to 3 hours for a run
8 hours sleep (I probably should sleep more than this with high mileage, but don't have time)

Those 3 things add up to about 22 or more hours per day.  That means I am left with less than 2 hours per day for dinner/family/church/other activities, everything.

This assumes my regular work hours, but sometimes I work 10-15 hours extra per week, which makes things even worse.

In other words, for me to run 100 miles per week means that I have essentially no time for life outside work, running, and sleep.  No family time, no frisbee time, nothing.  And when I do 2 runs per day, I have to wake up at 4 am for the morning run, meaning I should get to bed at 8 pm (next to impossible).  Needless to say, I still have not decided if I gain more from the 6 mile morning runs than I lose from sleep, etc.

After I realized this, I looked on the blog to see how the 4 guys who do the most high mileage survive- Sasha, Clyde, Holt, and Paul.  2 are self employed/work from home, Paul has 0 commute and flexible work hours, and Holt is a teacher (no work in the summer, but I have no idea how he gets mileage during school- very admirable).

Bottom line- have any of you ever been in situations like this and logged consistent high mileage (100+/week)?  Is it possible?  How?  Or should I admit that my 2 hours spent commuting each day essentially eliminates high mileage and make due with consistent/quality 70-80 miles per week?

Jon - I think the commute is definitely a deal-breaker. If you were single, you could probably pull it all off, but there's just no way to squeeze in that much running with the responsibilities of marriage and parenting. You really need lots of doubles to hit 100 mpw, but in your case it may not be worth the loss in sleep. I feel tight on time myself, and I have an ideal schedule and no kids. So unless you get a new job at the Space Dynamics Lab or something, I think you will have to be content with 80 mpw with an occasional one or two week temporary flux into the higher stuff.

That's the bad news. The good news is that I'm 99% sure you can break 2:30 on 80 mpw. There are two keys:

1) keep your fitness up year-round, and build off of each training cycle. You are already doing this by keeping up your running after TOU and making the decision to run all winter. No weeks lower than 50 miles, 60 is preferable.

2) employ the Big Workout philosophy. Tinman's concept of Big Workout marathon training basically means two really long, hard workouts per week (15-16-17 miles or so), maybe a standard long run, and everything else is short and easy.

http://therunzone.com/TinmanMarathonTrainingPhilosophy.html

So a typical schedule for you that employs Big Workouts would look something like this:

Sun: off (I'm assuming you do not want to run Sundays)
Monday: Big Workout - 16 miles with 9-10 mile tempo, 50-60 seconds slower than 5K pace (tinman tempo).
Tuesday: 8 miles, easy
Wednesday: 8 miles, easy
Thursday: 16 miles with 3-6 miles of tempo and 5 miles of intervals (ie - 8x1000m)
Friday: 8 miles, easy
Saturday: 20-22 miles, easy to moderate

This type of schedule would give you 75-80 miles. If you are getting in Big Workouts, you are doing A LOT of marathon-specific work. All the other days are for recovery, building your aerobic system, and building economy. With this kind of schedule, your easy days only chew up an hour, and your hard/long days "only" chew up 1.5-2 hours, because you are running them so fast! By the way, this is very similar to the kind of mileage and workouts I did before Ogden. I know that it really works. The only thing different I did before St. George is add more doubles, so that I was getting 2x8-mile runs on my easy days.

But I think you have the talent to break 2:30 on 80 mpw, especially if you optimize your training, as shown above.

I agree with Paul 100%
Very tough to get high mileage with so many responsibilities, but is probably not necessary.  I plan on doing something very similar if not the exact same program (as what Paul listed) this next year.  I don't think there is a magic number that you must hit (mileage) in order to approach your running potential.  I think running smarter/ more quality workouts (like the Big workout) is what gives you the fitness. 
The only other option that you can try to do is utilize the commute wisely.  I think you are already doing that with the carpool, but if you can nap that might make the difference.  Or have them drop you off 8 miles from home (on your easy days) to save 15 minutes.   I bet if you didn't take so many pit stops out running too you could add 10mpw.  Ha!
If you can train this winter you will be closer to 2:25 than 2:30 by next year so I wouldn't worry too much.

I agree with Paul (other than his advice weights a lot more than mine).   The intensity is the key, and really if you can't do doubles than this is a very good schedule.  I'm in the same boat wanting to get a 2:30 on my next one, other than my schedule is more flexible, but I do have a family and that's my most important focus.  Well, God being the ultimate priority in my life.  The way I've always viewed training/running (sorry if getting religious bothers you) if you allow God to be your number one priority everything else will come together in your schedule, and you'll have the training to get a 2:30. 

Are you able to run on your Lunch Hour?

No, I don't really get a lunch hour.  More just eat throughout the day- I often have meetings at all hours.  Plus my "lunch break" is technically 30 min max, so that doesn't give time to change, run, change, and make it a meaningful workout. 

Jon:
I would not recommend anyone with your schedule to run 100 miles a week unless they are superhuman and are able to recover on 6 hours of sleep, or they can relax so much while driving and/or working that it is as good as sleep for them. It may be theoretically possible, but will provide no benefits, as you will not have enough recovery to manage it. However, Paul's schedule should give you the desired results, you have enough natural talent to pull of a sub-2:30 in St. George off lesser mileage.

Jon, Thank you for posting this. When I read your post I wanted to know how you got inside my mind. This is something that I have also struggled with and have noticed that all of my friends back in St. Louis that ran 100+ mile weeks were either self-employed or single. My plan for the higher mileage it to maintain as many weeks at 80 for this next cycle. I would also like to break 2:30 but want to take a lesson from my college roommate and shoot for a two year plan of increased mileage. My plan is 2:35 next year off of 80 weeks but maintain that for an entire year following and give the sub-2:30 a go after a full 18-24 months of consistent higher mileage. I tried to hit 100 mpw on one-a-days last year. I was able to do it but was a wreck. I think that is what led to my injury last fall. I look forward to reading more comments on this topic.

I really like this post as it is something I've struggle with, trying to get in the miles and wanting to increase my training, while keeping everything else in balance as well.  I really admire Dave Holt since I'm also a teacher and father of three like he is.  He was able to make the high mileage work for him this past year, but I'm sure it wasn't easy and his wife was probably very understanding and supportive at times.  I think my schedule should allow for at least 80 miles a week next year and maybe more if I can organize things a little better, but my main goal is just to become more consistent each week.  I had too many ups and downs this past year with my training.

Jon
My eyes kept getting bigger and bigger as I read your schedule. By the time I finished, my jaw had dropped. Quite the dedication and self discipline. I only hope I can be as understanding and supportive as Marci! I really hope you can work out your training!

Some more thoughts. Paul - I think Monday and Tuesday should be swapped if possible. Hard - Off - Hard is not good. Better Hard - Off- Easy - Hard.

Jon - are you able to wear running shoes to work, do you sweat a lot in 20 minutes of running, and can your colleges tolerate your stink if you run for 20 minutes and then go back into the office? If you can pull this off, do it. 20 minutes of easy running in street clothes for your second run can do wonders. That is how I get a lot of my miles in on busy days.

Everybody - if you cannot do at least 140 miles a week in doubles, do not try 100 is singles, especially in 6 days. For somebody who works 8 hours a day, and then has other responsibilities to take care of - family, church, etc, the law of diminishing returns kicks in at around 70-80 miles a week. If they are able to cheat and sneak in some second runs during lunch hour, break in meetings, commute (park 2 miles away from the destination and run, in some cases this may even save time), etc, or if they are made of steel and can recover from 100+ miles a week off 6 hours of sleep (like Ted), then higher mileage may be bring some benefits.

A second run can be a great family activity, though. Some scenarios. Two youngest kids go in the stroller, the older ones, if they exist, run with you, your wife either does a project, rides a bike, or runs as well. Or you take all the kids to a playground, they play, you circle the playground for 30 minutes, the wife does a project, or watches a movie. When the mind engages, and you really want to make it happen, you can find a way to make it work.

The Saturday long run is not a Big Workout. It can be done at 7-minute pace. The only days done at any sort of hard effort are the two Big Workouts. I know Cody has success doing Big Workouts on Monday after taking Sunday day off. So it's more like Moderate - Off - Hard. After races, I usually defer the Big Workout until Tuesday, as I do agree that you need more than one day to recover from hard efforts.

On that note, sometimes I am not able to do two Big Workouts and a long run. On those weeks, I will do a Big Workout on Tuesday or Wednesday, and then another Big Workout on Saturday. I only run slow on Saturday if I have already done two Big Workouts that week. Then on race weeks, I'll do a Big Workout on Tuesday, and then treat the race as the second Big Workout.

Sasha- it's really not possible for me to run at work.  Dressed nice, no stop in work, etc.

I'm thinking of doing something like this- Mon- moderate trail run (8-12 miles), Tue- big workout, Wed- easy, Thur- big workout (sometimes on trails- i.e. hills, etc), Fri- easy, Sat- long run.  My legs rarely seem to have speed on Mondays, so I would be better saving the big workout for Tuesday.  And I imagine I can still add 1-3 morning workouts each week during the summer for a month or so, depending on how I feel.

Thanks for all the comments, everyone.  Dustin and Adam, maybe we should for an "elite at 80" group, with our own mileage board where the goal is to see who can come closest to consistent 80-mile weeks.

I have somehow managed to hit 100+ mile weeks with some busy work schedules in the past and also since I have been in Utah. However, in both cases the commute time Jon mentions would probably be a deal breaker for me as well. And as Sasha said I can survive on less sleep than most. Right now I do have some flexibility as some of my work is to be at physical training so there is no change time involved from being at work to hitting the road for a run and I only live 5 minutes from my office. If I max out my time I can hit between 110-130 miles per week in the time I have allotted for running. I do combine some of my second runs with the kids as well to maximize additional family time and I think it is something my boys will always remember, going on runs with Dad and just shooting the breeze. My wife is also very tolerant of my desire to run and achieve my best. Right now my schedule breaks down as follows for MON-FRI:

Work = 45-50 hours a week (not including the weekends that I work which is about 2 per month on average)
Running = 14 hours (+ 3 hours on Sat.)
Shower/Change/Travel, etc.. = 5 hours
Lunch = 6 hours (once a week out with wife and twice a week at home and spend time with wife and 3 year old/sneak a nap if possible)
Family Time = 9 hours minimum (+ runs with boys; lunches; boy scouts; and Saturday's when I'm not working)
Sleep = 36 hours (about 7 hours a night give or take an hour)

So on a 5 day week that pretty much consumes my 120 hours. If I had to throw in a commute of any distance unfortunately the second run would probably suffer the most. In fact doing the math 80 miles a week with 2 hours of commuting per day would be very tough! I also think if one can only do 80 miles a week they can still run pretty fast marathon times. It takes a slightly different approach as Paul points out but if there is more quality involved with the 80 miles a week then one can still run fast times.

I think you should try and stay at about 80 miles per week.  That is still going to be a push for you but with your commute, I think that amount of mileage should be your goal.  80 miles per week is still a lot.  Be sure to make each of your workouts count (i.e. slow on recovery runs, tempo on tempo runs, and good speed workouts!)

Yikes. I thought I was busy.

I was running 80/week this time last year and reconigzed I needed to kick it up to 90-100.

Apart from doing one or two doubles a week, I started running on Sundays. I know this is a sensitive topic and was a difficult decision for me to make that took a lot of (here come the Utah code words) thought and pondering before I felt at peace about going that direction.

I don't see any other way for you to get in the miles. So if Sunday is not an option you feel comfortable with, then do your best to hit 80. With the right speed training, 80 mpw can be enough to get the 2:30 job done.

Have you considered moving closer to you job?  That would be some extra time.

Jon is not allowed to move.

Thanks, Paul- I take that to mean you want me to stay in Logan.

Josse, my work is 30 miles from the nearest town of at least a few hundred people.  In order to be in a town with any appreciable size, 50 miles is required (Logan or Ogden).  So I decided that the longer commute is worth it, since I would have a long commute anyways.

Changing jobs is always an option, but not one I am pursuing now.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do?

Engineer, working on the space shuttle solid rockets.  Which is why my work is in the middle of the desert- you don't want a million pounds of rocket fuel blowing up right next to some houses...

Hey Jonathan, you don't know a guy at work named Jim Robinson do you?

He works at our SLC facility, I think.  I don't know him personally.

Jon, I think you refer back to the quote section Ted has going, and look at the one Bill Rogers said (I think), something about 100 not being some magic number. I really think that is true - set your goals, figure out what you can do, and then - the biggy - DON'T LET THINGS GET IN THE WAY OF THEM.  In the summer I do luckily have more time, but then I become a full time dad (as my wife teaches swim lessons).  The trick for me is to just do whatever it takes to get whatever mileage you can in.  For me that is 5:00 AM or earlier almost every day in the summer.  Also to take it to the next level - 120 this summer (I'll give it a try anyway) I am going to run Sunday nights - later.  Some might not like this idea, but like we all do with various things in our lives - I justify it and feel okay about it.  Whatever you figure out,  CONSISTENCY is the key.  I have seen and coached a lot of very talented runners who just let things always come up, and then the improvement never comes, and they wonder why.

Dave:
120 can be easily done in 6 days.
Regarding Sunday training for an active and believing Latter-Day Saint. The counsel given to us is to avoid heavy exercise. I could of course justify going out for a 5 mile run at 7:30 pace, that is not a heavy exercise at all for me. However, what kind of example is it setting for my family, and neighbors? How am I supposed to teach my children to keep the Sabbath after that? How am I supposed to teach a Sunday School lesson or give a talk on the Sabbath observance? Should I be surprised to find my children groping for exceptions to the rules and justifying questionable behavior of much greater magnitude later in life? I believe everything we do, good or bad, has a ripple effect, and is often magnified in our children.  In the words of Alma, "by small and simple things are great things brought to pass".

Sasha, you always bring it home.  As you are planning on 120's, what would be a typical workout week for you?

Sasha- why do you think 120 is easy in 6 days?  That is 2 hours a day away from the family.  Not an easy thing if you already spend 8-12 hours away already.  I would like to hear your workout schedule, too.

Being new to SLC and the LDS culture, I have found this topic very interesting. I have had long discussions with active LDS members at work concerning exercise on Sunday and am still not 100% sure, I understand. However, I do agree with Sasha, that if you believe in something, that starting to bend rules may cause a horrible ripple affect.
I used to debate this topic with my pastor in Jr. high and high school. Though I’m not LDS, the group I ran with ran Sunday mornings and this often interfered with activities I had been involved with at church. The debate centered on the fact that I felt communing with God in nature (as I did all weekend running in the forest preserves) was a more significant bonding experience with God than sitting in church. My pastor came back with if I was truly using the runs as a devotional communing with God he could see my point but that he doubted running with a large group talking about running was the same thing… I agreed with him that this was most likely just a teen trying to make excuses but it did have the affect of brining thoughts of religion, faith, and God into more of my daily runs. This was more than 15-yrs ago and though some of my views have changed, I still find that running on Sunday can have a different meaning to me. However, as I said some would just consider this making excuses.
I now use my rational for daily running in a different view. First, I’ve tried to have one of my weekend runs as family time. Second, by running 7-days a week I can actually spend more time with family because there are only so many hours a day and if I can spread out my mileage over 7 days I can usually run most of my mileage before my family is even awake so that I don’t take anytime away from them. Finally, I have to agree with Jon and say that running 120 miles a week may be easy for some but for most even on 7 days this takes a huge toll on the body much less trying to condense it into 6 days. I have the same problem with 1- vs. 2-a-days. I do all of my running in 1-a-days because the extra shower, stretch, changing time would invariably take away from family. This fact alone almost makes 7-day a week running a necessity for me. So, for now I do my recovery days a little longer but slower. I’m sure there is no easy way to come to a solution for the time constraints of competitive running but I think the discussion is a good one… I’m glad to see a forum where people can have serious discussions. I’ve become fed-up with LetsRun because discussions like this all too often digress to name calling.

Dave:
Check my blog - I have been following a fairly consistent pattern. Look at any week that is over 115.
Jon:
120 is easy when you are self-employed in a good way. If you have to work a regular job, have a long commute, have a family, cannot run during lunch, cannot do errands on foot, cannot nap during a meeting, and cannot do doubles it is not only not easy, it is not something I would recommend. Unless you are a superman, you will overtrain.

Although I am self-employed, I do have a fairly full schedule. I do need to be there for clients some time. We home school, and I do a good portion of it. I keep the blog running. I serve in the church. So I have to resort to some form of "cheating" get my runs in. Here is a list of Sasha's "cheats":

Short-term "cheats":

a) Run with each kid individually when possible - this gives me extra 4.5 miles a day at sub-9:00 average, which is slower than ideal, but still a good aerobic base builder,  and it gives me a chance for my second run. This also provides a window for a daily scheduled father interview, something that will probably not happen otherwise, or at least not that regularly.

b) Do not shower after your second run.

c) Use the double stroller frequently. If you put the little ones in the double stroller for a), this makes 9:00 pace more like 8:20.

d) Run errands literally when possible.

e) Wear a pair of running shoes as much as possible. You never know when you'll have a chance to sneak in a couple of miles.

f) Avoid places, jobs, and other situations where the smell of sweat you would get from a 2 mile run in street clothes is a big deal.

g) Never watch TV except during General Conference.

h) Sleep at every opportunity.

Long-term "cheats":

a) Avoid debt - live below your means. This increases job flexibility.

b) Develop a skill set that increases the amount of money you could make in an hour.


For Adam and others who are not LDS. The LDS people are in a unique situation. The rest of the Christian world  goes largely only by "Six days shalt thou labor, and on the seventh shalt thou rest".  This leaves the meaning of Sabbath rest very much up to an individual to interpret. Our difference is that we believe that we have a prophet today with the same type of authority that was given to Biblical prophets like Abraham, Moses, or Peter in their times. This is very significant. Can you imagine living in the days of Moses, he comes to you with the plates of commandments and asks you to follow them? Or maybe Peter coming from a visit with the Savior, and sharing with you the Lord's will concerning the church? The prophets of our day have clarified the meaning of Sabbath day rest for us on numerous occasions, and one thing that we are asked not to do is heavy exercise.

Sasha- lots of good cheats.  I have to ask the fastrunningmommy what she thinks about b), though.

That's kind of funny; I always skip the first shower, and get my shower after the second run. That way I can go to bed squeaky-clean. I could care less how I smell at work. Plus, I rarely break a sweat in the morning. My Big Workout days are always singles, so not an issue there.

Or as an alternative just skip both showers, I'm going to invest heavily in a cologne company... Don' worry all FRB members will get a free bottle.

Not me. I shower after every run. If I work then after work and then after the run. Sometimes 3-4 showers a day. It just feels so good to be clean. Cleanliness is Godliness Sasha. I don't know how you can handle letting that sit on you body. Eating healty helps your body, but I would bet some better hygiene would also give you some better results. 

No way, too much showering dries out the skin.

I'm with Clyde, shower after every run.  Sometimes I shower 3 times if I play frisbee, too.  I love to feel clean, and it doesn't take more than 5 minutes.

I think most people are greatful when us stinky runner shower on a regular basis.  Although baby wipes and deoderant can work for a quick cheat.