Fast Running Blog

http://completerunning.com/archives/2008/05/20/las-vegas-marathon-in-financial-trouble/

These guys either need to learn how to put on a race or just give up. Was SLC Marathon better this year than previous years?

June 15? Highly doubtful that a company that owes that much can pay it all off in 3 weeks. Not only is it not going to happen that day because they can't and blow people off all the time, but it's also a Sunday- so nobody is going to see whatever money might be given until after the weekend is over anyway.

When are they finally going to file bankruptcy, or get bought out, and end this stuff?

I read some of the links from completerunning, and it makes it sound like lots of Las Vegas vendors don't want to deal with them anymore.  How would it be to show up at the starting line of a Devine race to see there were no bathrooms because no company would work with them?  I bet Devine wouldn't even mention it to the runners beforehand.  This just makes me appreciate locally run race even more.  I have never had a bad marathon experience (Top of Utah, St. George, Ogden, even Boston- is Boston locally run?) and I really appreciate paying $60 for the Utah races rather than $120 many marathons charge.  Thanks to all the local race directors!

I don't know, I did not make top 5 :-)

I was able to find a secret bathroom at the start, so this did not give me a chance to evaluate the port-a-potties. The aid stations looked OK. The course was well-marked and protected by police. The mile markers were right on (probably thanks to Bill Cobler or Demetrio). Organization-wise they were fine.

Elite entry process was rather interesting, but since I knew the routine it did not bother me as much as it used to. Basically, it was this. You send an email to somebody in charge and get no reply. You call and nobody answers. You show up the day before, tell them who you are, fill out a form, and you are in.

I do not know why they have such a hard time paying up. I suppose their failure to pay the bills on time is a reflection of the general trend in our society to bite more than you are able or willing to chew and be casual about financial obligations.

I think they must be spending the money before they have it.  Instead of building it slowly and getting a good reputation.  That is how society is now days, eveyone wants it now.  When you are always playing catch up it will eventally catch up and result in bad things ei. bankrupcy.

The last I checked, they don't have a title sponsor, and that surely hurts.

I ran Vegas in 2006 and it was a complete disaster.  The mile markers were off by as much as a half mile in places and there was no food at the finish line. The only thing I could find was warm water bottles.  I vowed I'd never do a Devine event again.  I ran the Salt Lake half this year, primarily because I got comped.  I thought they did a fine job with the organization other than there weren't enough porta potties at the start.

I read about Devine's problems last week on marathonguide.com they really need to get their act together and pay up.

I did a local 10K a few years ago where they promises sweatshirts to the age group winners. It never came. I didn't really want the prize, but it is just another example of why no one should support their races. I would rather bandit their race than give them an entry fee, not that I will openly condone such an action.

The problem is that revenues can't seem to keep up with their extraordinary overhead (staff, office space, billboards, full page newspaper ads, flying in a handful of African runners to give the race a higher profile).  No other local races do any of this to the same level.  Not even their attempt to sign up every single person in Salt Lake for some event or another can seem to generate enough $ to keep it fully operational.  However, to increase revenue, perhaps they could add a few new events for next year:  1) 3K ball bearing chase; 2) Marathoners v. Rollerbladers (the New Duel in the Sun); 3) "Motorist" Division (simply drive your car over the marathon course).

I wish that the "Salt Lake Marathon" felt like it actually had something to do with Salt Lake. It's an imported event designed exclusively to make money as a business venture.  In my view, it lacks the one thing that makes many local races fun  ... soul.  Oh, and maybe a few waterstops.

Come on, Chad, tell us how you really feel.  Be honest now.

I definitely agree that (from what I hear) Devine tries too hard to "make" their race be great rather than let it grow by itself and good word of mouth.  And, I like the last comment that their XXXXX marathons [fill in the name of your city here] doesn't have anything to do with the town.

So...
Question: if you could design your "perfect" Salt Lake City Marathon, what would you do?
1. The route?
2. Ideal size?
3. Prize structure?
4. Nuances to make it truly "Salt Lake"?
5. Other gimmicks, features, and amenities?
6. Time of year?

We've done a lot of complaining, so now let's play "Sim Marathon" and design our ideal race.

Since there's been so much talk lately of prizes, I'll start with my ideal cash breakdown. (slightly inspired by Twin Cities).

Money 10 deep - $5000, $3000, $2000, $1000, $750, $500, $400, $300, $200, $100
Olympic Qualifier premiums for U.S. runners - $1500 for any male under 2:19, $1500 for any female under 2:4?
U.S. Development Premiums - $1000, $500, $250 for top 3 U.S. runners
Top local finisher (50 mile radius from SLC) - $500
Course record: $1000

For the route, I would need to give it some thought, but definitely a loop course in order to make it O.Q.-eligible. Whatever course you put in SLC will be very difficult to qualify on, but I think it's important to make the course eligible and leave no doubt in nay-sayers' minds that the course is "honest".

Paul--It is a real challenge to make Salt Lake an attractive "destination" marathon for elite athletes. It has a lot working against it from the start because the elevation will cause many to stay away.  Also, an abundance of "Salt Lake flavor" may not be as enticing to many out of state runners as we might think.  The best thing that can be done is build it from the ground up as an outstanding local event that really gets the support of the community. I think the "party marathon" thing has run its course and I would just get rid of that concept right away. (Who cares if Hootie and the Blowfish are playing a post-marathon concert?) The focus should be solely on the marathon race experience.  No 5k fun run, etc.  Just a marathon.

Salt Lake is not New York or Chicago, so we can't offer that concrete canyon experience.  I prefer the real canyons that we do have, but its hard to create a fast loop course and incorporate them. Thus, the truly vexing issue is that the best Salt Lake Marathon would be one that is hilly, difficult, and beautiful.  These days, though, people want a shot at a PR if they're going to bother running 26 miles, so it's a hard thing to pull off.

St. George does such a good job because they have their logistics down pat and they offer a beautiful course.  That's what makes a race "work"--you see all the nice things about a place, even while the little things you don't see make the whole thing  work smoothly.  An urban marathon is different from a desert marathon, obviously, but I would focus on execution over everything else.

I think you could map out a flat loop course, but it would likely have to be done in some relatively uninteresting part of the valley, making the course not so spectacular.  The trade off would have to be between a nice flat course and someplace where there is at least the possibility of spectator viewing.  Alternatively, you could design a course that overlaps itself so that the geographic reach wouldn't have to be so extensive.  If you did that, I think you could start and end a race in downtown.  Actually, the best place to start and end would be at the new City Creek Center development now being built downtown. The problem is that you will still have some kind of a climb on the return, though perhaps not a big one.

As far as paying runners, I think it's a great idea to have a generous prize structure that shows the race puts the athletes first.  I'll have to think more about other ways to add some "Salt Lake" flavor.  Maybe run it out by the GSL.

How 'bout make all runners wear shorts to their knees and sleeves on their shirts  ;D 

Seriously, though, the State needs at least one race where OTQ is a possibility.  It wouldn't be a great shot because the altitude gets in the way, but at least have the race be OTQ eligible.  Paul left off master's prize money,
I think that Masters prize money should be at least three deep.  Since the overall number 5 finisher is $750, per Paul, shouldn't the top master's be $750 too, so maybe $750, 500, 250?  I'm not sure I'd want to see the top masters get more than the top 5 overall.

Oops, you're right. Yeah, your $750-500-250 breakdown sounds good for masters. BTW - all runners can double-dip into any prize category. So if a male master who is a U.S. citizen runs 2:18, wins the race outright, sets the course record, and is from Salt Lake, he would take home $9750.

Oh, and obviously no medals for finishers since that's obviously fundamentally flawed. We'd have to think of something better, something unique for finishers and age group winners. Something Utah. Maybe a commemorative pack of fry sauce?

Paul--could you put your GIS skills to work and figure out a loop course with the absolute minimum of elevation change?

Also--for the locally flavored post-race finishing object:  I would vote for an orange pedestrian flag.

Chad - I can tell you without the GIS :-) N loops around the Liberty Park until you hit the marathon distance. Great spectator course too. Just need to manage traffic control so lapped people do not cause a road block. Maybe have a qualifying standard, let's say 5:00 in the marathon, 2:00 in the half, or 30:00 in the 5 K.

I think any loops smaller than about 10 miles would result in gridlock. 5 laps through Central Park worked with 150 fast runners, and made for a good spectator course, but would be lousy as a "real" marathon.

It's hard enough to run tangents as it is, and even harder when passing people.

But performing two big loops is a decent idea, as it would help get thicker crowds, and also cut down on the number of road closings and cops needed.

Ok, so how about a Salt Lake Marathon that is distinguished by its exclusivity rather than its attempt to sign up everyone in sight. Field limited to 150 or so runners, qualifying at a Utah marathon is given priority but anyone can qualify based on times at other selected races. Get great sponsors, give big $ to reward top performances.  Keep all other costs bare bones. Could serve as a state/regional championship of sorts.  Do it old school.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the big city marathon concept, but you can get that just about anywhere. For a race to really distinguish itself, it has to do something totally different but in a way that is true to the core of the sport. I bet there is actually a demand for a race that is highly selective--even if the course is difficult--because getting into the race is itself an accomplishment.

Then it's also easier to do relatively small loops and keep it flat and at least somewhat fast.

Sasha Pachev's FastRunningBlog.Com Salt Lake City-Liberty Park Utah Marathon Championship Series Race for the Cure?

Sounds good to me.

You forgot /St. George Runnning Center!

Pure genius. We just need to pick a date.

And pick a race director.  I hear Paul Petersen has alot of free time nowadays. . . ;)

Hmm...I'm warming up to this idea. Take the top 150 or 200 qualifying times and run then around Liberty Park a few times. Publicize it with grass roots - Letrun.com, YouTube, FloTrak (or whatever that is), The Final Sprint, FastRunningBlog (obviously). Finishers get a cotton t-shirt, but wear it with pride. Crowd support is optimal, overhead is minimal.


Right. Actually Stacy has banned me from taking on new projects. All my free time is spent going to dr appointments anyway. You healthy people are the ones who have free time.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-marathon3-2008jun03,0,5271555.story

More bad press for Devine.

I like this idea alot. Bring it back to the old days when running a race like this meant something-- no money grubbin, no stamped out finisher medal-- just qualified, determined runners on a chalk starting line fighting for the finish, with family and friends around, and a BBQ after.

Something like this would be like the difference between a KFC in Utah, and real southern, off the side of the road, grama's sweet lovin cookin shack chicken-- Love, skill, and pride.

With the right race director, race committee, seed money and publicity this could actually work.

Kind of a "Utah and US elite" type of race.  Maybe do cross country scoring by state to see who wins!

Another idea: some sort of cool prize (cash or other) for biggest PR for male/female. So hypothetically, someone could place 30th or so, well out of prize money, but if they PR by 20-minutes, they get some sort of reward for that, or at least will be thinking about it during the race.

We could try this:
spring 2009 - "trial" run of the race. It is not advertised, but pretty much a blog and friends-of-the-blog event. Just word of mouth. Maybe we have a couple dozen, maybe we have 50, I don't know. Some sort of "entry fee" is charged, but it's essentially just a prize pot donation. Permitting and USATF certification will probably need to be done for the "trial", but other than that we wouldn't need much (minimal course markings, supplies, etc.). Whatever money entries bring in is recycled into the prize distribution by pre-set percentages (ie - if the race brings in XX, 1st place is worth xx percentage, 2nd place xx percent, etc.).  But the true purpose of the "trial" is to try out the course, get runner feedback on improvements, figure out if the thing will really "work", and start building a grass-roots base. Ragnar tends to do something like this for all of their races the year before they open registration and truly launch a given race.

spring 2010 - inaugural race. Website, logistics, maps, and other things have been in the works since 2008, and are now very polished by the time of official launch. Logistics, permitting, and supplies kinks are worked out, although the race is still very bare-boned. It's the opposite of a "rush job". Entry is capped at 150, and based entirely on a previous, USATF-certified marathon result (fastest 150 get in, the opposite of a random lottery). Age-grading could be considered? Obviously gender too, so maybe Top 100 men and Top 100 women or something. Or perhaps separate Men's and Women's races.

In the end, the race can be promoted as a "very cool" and prestigious thing to get into, an alternative for the 2:30-types who have been discouraged by the new O.T. standards, and essentially abandoned by the USATF. A "peoples' championship", if you will.

Paul--I like your style.  A couple more thoughts: First, the focus should always be on the athletes and making the actual race experience the best it can be. I really like the idea of a fastest come, fastest served entry format with some kind of age grading.  Perhaps just having two categories, open and masters would be enough.  Second, there won't be much money for travel stipends, but I bet we could rally 50 SL residents to put up an athlete or two. 

Only problem I see is that you wouldn't have much prize money available unless you get some big corporate sponsor to fork over the dough.  That is where the masses of thousands of normal runners come in useful in most races- they help provide the prize money for the fast few.

Well yeah, it would definitely need some sort of sponsor and/or donor. Ideally entry fees could cover the sparse supplies and logistical items, and sponsor(s) would cover prizes, lodging, and other amenities.

Not that I have any idea of what I'm talking about.

Thiokol sounds like they might make a good sponsor.

Headline on Marathonguide.com today:

Devine Racing Dismantles - Sells 2 Properties
Los Angeles Marathon and Chicago Half Marathon Sold To Pay Debts
In 2005/2006, Devine Racing was hailed as the most progressive entity in the running industry who would help to propel the sport. Devine created the Salt Lake City Marathon and then followed that up by purchasing the Los Angeles Marathon, Las Vegas Marathon, Chicago Half Marathon and the Chicago Big 10K. A marketing and possible future sales agreement with the Toronto Marathon gave the company a foothold in Canada and dozens of other marathons in North America had provided financials to the company in the hope that they might be acquired and join the high-flying company. 2005 saw Devine hire some of the most well-known names in the industry, pledge tens of thousands of dollars to running organizations and invest a reported half million dollars in a website community.

But how quickly the great can fall... By 2007, reports were surfacing that Devine was not paying its vendors or prize money to athletes. The company dismantled its central sales office and top executives began "resigning" for personal and other reasons. Reports in the Las Vegas Review-Journal stated that the city of Las Vegas was giving Devine a June 15th deadline to make good on its financial obligations to that city and local vendors. Last week it was announced that Devine had sold the Chicago Half Marathon to US Road Sports & Entertainment Group - the company that purchased the ING Miami and ING Georgia Marathons. Rumors have swirled for weeks that the Los Angeles Marathon was up for sale - with the list of suitors including Elite Racing, the New York Road Runners and US Road Sports. According to a June 4th article in the Las Vegas Review Journal and June 14th articles in the Los Angeles Times and Las Vegas Review Journal, Devine has agreed to sell the Los Angeles Marathon to an investor group led by David Kingsdale and Russ Pilar. According to the Los Angeles Times, Devine technically owns the "operating rights" for the marathon and any sale will have to be approved by the City which technically owns the race. Chris Devine, the founder of Devine Racing, was quoted as saying: "To own the L.A. Marathon and screw it up is a monumental failure."

Maybe now I can run the Chicago Half Marathon without feeling guilt of giving money to those guys. This is good because the other half marathon in town is sponsored by John Bingham and I also don't like giving my money to people who encourage running as slow as possible.