Fast Running Blog

Steve and I have wanted to try to get some guys together for a little running camp for a while now. So enough talking about it and lets get the ball rolling. Here are the details so far.
1. Location- Torrey, Utah elevation 6,800 ft at base camp. (my family owns a motel there and we could camp on the law or rent rooms at a great deal) wifi internet as well.
Torrey is located only a few miles away from Capital Reef National Park, Boulder Mountain, Thousand Lake Mountain, Calf Creek Falls, and much more. It's one of the most beautiful places on earth.
2. The camp would be free other than food, and a room if you want to rent one. Depending on how many people we get to come we could plan it and do all the food together.
3. Although we would try to schedule around 20-30 miles of running a day... Everyone is welcome regardless of ability. If people show an interest in participating we will put together workouts for and runs for those who may wish to run a little less and play a little more.
4. Bring the whole family. There are 12 rooms in the motel and enough grass to camp a small army. 
5. The date is kind of an open discussion. It would be a week in the summer that best works for the majority. Most likely a time outside of a major race like Wasatch Back, Des News, ect. We are just going to keep this open and look at what works for the people who would like to do it.

The Running

Like I said we would like to do around 20-25 miles per day. Some right in town at an avg. of 7,000 and most in the park, mountains surrounding which could be up to 10,000 and as low as 6,000.
Best case we would get enough to schedule a mildly competitive race on the last day (Saturday morning) maybe like a half or 10 miler or something.
It would be a good mix of running on roads, trails, and dirt roads. So we can plan speed works as well.

The Fun

Games....
Swimming at the pool, Waterfalls and much more!

Anyways this will get the ball rolling and hopefully we can get 10+ people to come. At this point Steve H., Dave H., and Me are in and that's the only people we've talked to. Once again Everyone is welcome.

Sounds pretty cool. James and I were talking about something like that last summer. I'll see how it rolls with my calendar.

Paul- throw some dates out that work for you. That's what we'll have to do and then just pick one that works for the majority of those interested.

uh...week of July 6. No races that I can think of, plus July is rancid.

That would be a good week. The bonus of that date is. Torrey holds the worlds biggest small town 4th of July celebration that would be Saturday the 5th for anyone who wanted to show up a couple days early. I'll be up there for that 4th of July weekend.
The week of the 4th might be a good option too if you don't mind spending your holiday in Torrey. There will be a 5 or 10k the same day as all the other festivities. But most likely most people will be elsewhere with family.

There are circuit races in SLC and Provo on the 4th that a lot of people will do. However, I could see myself doing the Murray or Provo race, and then keep going south to Torrey right after the race. That could work out well.

I might be in and I could give little clinics on stretching, self massage, and all the other things I know.  I would just have to convince my husband.  Where is Torrey?

Clyde, that's looking good.  I think I would like to tentatively call three rooms - 1 for my fam. and 2 for the "x-country" camp (1 boys, 1 girls).

I think that sounds pretty cool. I wouldnt know for sure til dates are finalized. I dont think my husband would come but I would bunk up with some of the other FRB chicks if their families werent coming.

Would there be a group of non-runners, as well?  Such as some wives, etc?  This idea intrigues me, but my wife is due in mid-June, so I wouldn't leave her.  Which means that if we come, we will have a 2 year old and a 1 month old with us. 

Jon- Everyone is welcome. Wives, children, runners from the blog. Dave may even bring his high school team.

Let's just tentatively say it will be the week of July 6th. It would be nice to do it the week of the 4th but there is just a lot going on for people. So it will be that week. As far as Mon-Sat.... I'm still not sure we will have to see what people can do. But even if someone could only come for like thurs, fri, and sat it would be fun and useful.

Sounds like a really cool idea.  If I can work it out, I would love to come.

I would like to know the specs. on the rooms, how much per night for a room, how many beds, is there a kitchen or at least a fridge, how big are they, ect.?  I think the wed or thurs. through sat  is more doable.  But the date (after the 4th) sounds  like a good one.  Oh ya is there a grocery store there? 

Josse- In answer to your questions. Torrey is a hour southwest of Richfield. Or like 15 min's from Fishlake...
There is a grocery store in Torrey but it doesn't carry everything. There is also on in a town about 10 miles away (Loa) that has most everything you'd expect. The specs of the hotel are: Most rooms are tow beds, there is one with a king bed and a pull out couch, and one that is like an apartment with a mini kitchen and stuff. So you could for the most part do 4 people per room. There is also a regular fridge that would suffice everyones needs in the service room. As far as price on the rooms I'm still not sure. What we'd have to do is make sure how many we wanted, and the dates we wanted them and then go from there. However regular price is $50 a night so it would be cheaper than that, and they are very clean, neat rooms... not 5 star but nice.

To all- To keep things affordable to all my plan would be to have most everyone pitch a tent and we could make a little camp on the grass in front of the motel and then maybe rent a couple rooms to share with everyone to just use the showers a toilets. Of course if your family or group wants a room for the whole time you can do that as well. I'll bring a 15 person tent and air mattress and sleep out there myself.
Also some will want to come for the full week and I'll plan on running it all week for those who want the full experience. But for those who can only pull off the last few days thats cool or even the last day or the first day and the last day... Whatever works for that person. We'll plan on Monday-Saturday like most peoples regular running week and so those who are doing the whole week can push for like a weekly mileage PR. Something like 130-140 mpw (2-3 runs per day) for myself.
Also adding in little instructional mini courses during the day would be fantastic as well.

If everyone gets involved this could really end up being a great time. Torrey is beautiful and if bloggers wanted to plan this as part of their summer vacation with the rest of your family you wouldn't be disappointed.

Tentatively pencil a room in for us as well. Since I'll have a 7+ month pregnant wife with me, I doubt we'll want to sleep in a tent, especially if we can get a good deal. :-)

For us, coming down Friday the 4th after a SLC/Provo race and leaving on Wednesday or so the next week would probably work best. The 4th for us is a paid holiday, and that way we wouldn't have to miss more than a few days of work. Missing a whole week is pushing it, but that's just us. We'll be spending most of our vacation days in Michigan in May, so using a paid holiday would be nice financially.

Is anyone else interested in coming down on the 4th?

Clyde - one more thing: does the motel allow pets? We might want to bring Gil.

Paul like I said we will be going up for the 4th weekend. Torrey's little celebration would be on the 5th actually so that will be fun. As far as bringing Gil...plan on it. They don't let you bring pets in the room but there will be plenty of place's to let him play. We will be bringing our two hunting dogs Izzy and Zoe. My aunt and uncle who own the hotel also have their home built just on the west side of the motel and they have a one year old playful lab. If you have a tie-up rope we can just tie him up outside. The weather in the summer in Torrey is the best. Never really hot at all.

Here are a few links to see a few pictures of Torrey. The very first one is the motel site. The Boulder View Inn.


www.boulderviewinn.com   

www.wildnatureimages.com/Capitol_Reef_National_Park_Photos.htm

www.untraveledroad.com/Tour/USA/Utah/Wayne/Torrey?w=7W

www.flickr.com/photos/carlberger/802888614/in/set-72157601192833100/

If you look through the third link it's kind of a virtual tour of the town.
The the forth link is just someone's pictures on Flickr and if you look through that whole album they have some good one's.

Paul- there is a large degree of irony that you would consider bringing Gil to a running camp!

Bethany and I thought it sounded like fun, so count us in.  We need to figure out how many days we could be there as it is unlikely that we could spend the week there, but we will do what we can.  I will firm up how many days and decide on whether or not to spring for a room.  I have a feeling that we will scare away all the other guests with 30 people running around.  I fear for your Uncle.  Does he know what he is getting into? 
Jon, tell marci that Beth and the kids would come.  Jaxon can babysit...  Seriously, though Beth was hoping some girls come so she can get runs in as well.  Sounds like a blast!

I definitely want to recruit some girls for this running camp! We can go at different times than the guys in case anyone brings kids that need to be watched. We could do our own runs, so plan on it! It will be lots of fun! We can even have a pregnant category for Stacy and Marci and whoever else might fit :) 1 mile walks??? :)
BTW, there are only 12 rooms in this motel, so once you are for real, let us know so we can officially reserve it in your name. They do sell out pretty much all summer, so we'll have to get them reserved pretty soon. If you don't want or get a room, there is always the grass for tents!

I could definalty come, I don't know that I am capapble of that kinda mileage... are you going to have a group of non-over achievers?  I could just stay in Lyman or somewhere so I don't need to reserve a room, so I'll just wait and see what you put together but it sounds fun! 

Michelle- Obviously I won't be doing crazy mileage either! We will put together our own less crazy runs!

We could have a Masters group as well.   do you offer any senior discount rates?   AARP members!

Some thoughts on this. I hope everybody understands that the camp is a plus from the social and possibly business perspective, it is a minus from the training perspective, for a number of reasons. Higher altitude is actually a minus. Especially if you are going there with the mindset that you are going to run some crazy mileage. I would say that even trying to maintain your regular mileage would not be advisable. To minimize the damage (note the wording), I would recommend to cut the mileage to about 70-80% of the normal if through a turn of misfortune you were stranded at some elevation that is significantly higher than where you live for a week. And do not even think of doing it fast - ease off to more than what you think you should. The nervous system is still tuned for the elevation you live at, so it will attempt to drive your body at a higher intensity.

In general, altitude training is something that you could possibly get marginal benefits from if you have the luxury of moving around in a very particular way for months. Otherwise, it is a minus.

Another minus is the stress of travel to and back from the camp, plus the stress of living away from home. I am yet to see a runner that ever got faster while he was on vacation.

I estimate that  for the FRB team the cost of doing the camp this way is running about 3-5 seconds per mile slower in every race for a month afterwards. The big question is if the social, educational, and business benefits justify it.
 

Anyone want to post a motivational, inspirational script for how to spring this on our spouses? 

I wouldn't think we would want people split into groups by sex, but by desired mileage and pace.  I would love to come but will have to see.

Sure. Here's my script.

Paul: Hey wifey, wanna skip work and go to Fast Running Blog camp in Torrey in July?
Wifey: I don't have to run, do I?
Paul: No.
Wifey: Sounds good.

Here is my script:

Me: Hey wifey, wanna  go to Fast Running Blog camp in Torrey in July?
Her:  Are you crazy?  With all we have going on this summer...you want to go on ANOTHER running trip?
Me:  Hey, hey...just kidding!

:-)  Actually, she is really supportive of my running, but we have so much already packed into July there is no way I could make this event, as fun as it sounds with the "crazy mileage gang".

Sasha, nice try buddy but your logic doesn't hold up here. I spent the week before the STGM this last year in Torrey on a non-stop schedule of running, hunting, manual labor, running... and I know the hard work at the altitude improved my time by likely 1-2 min's from what it would have been had I not gone and just stayed home on a regular training schedule. I'm fully certain that if people keep training all summer that they could go into the week in Torrey and do a PR mileage week and just be fine. I guess time will tell. I'm using that week in July as a big push in my training to be ready for Des News. We'll see how things boil out there?

Michelle- There are a ton of things to do in Torrey besides run. Lots of fun stuff in the mountains and at the National Park a mile away. Not to mention the great weather in July. As far as running, there will just be different groups going out and whichever you want to join would be great, definitely not based on age or gender. BTW, this is Mik'L :)

I think wifes are more up to coming along but our husbands think us runners are a bunch of crazies and mine doesn't want to come spend a week with you (no offense).  So I will have to see about coming my myself, but he didn't seem to excited about that either.

Sasha, I'm going to have to disagree with some of your reasoning on altitude training, but I will agree with what you said about lowering the intensity and mileage IF you are not prepared adequately for the increase in altitude.

A short stint (less than a week) at a higher altitude will bring about as much improvement as adding a week of bowling to your workouts, BUT it if you are smart about the training it won't hurt much either. If anything, the mere psychological boost of being at a camp, with little distractions, and with other runners will be helpful to most people.

I did a review of altitude training studies this past fall, here's a table I included (it doesn't come out well on here):

LH & TH refers to living high and training high (all training and living is done within this altitude)
LH & TL refers to living high and training low (mixed training; most fast training done at lower elevations/sea level)
LH & TL supplemental refers to artificial means (table shows required evelation settings needed for response)

                    
       Comparison of Altitude Training Methods   
   
                     Required Elevation(s)     Duration at Elevation            Performance Increase*2
                       
LH & TH           Greater than 2500 m               > 4 weeks, with daily                                  No significant
                         or 8200 ft                continual hypoxic exposure                            improvement
                       
LH & TL                   2000-2500 m                > 4 weeks with daily hypoxic            Average 1% increase 1
                   or 6500-8200 ft                          exposure of 22 hrs                           or about 13.4 s,

LH & TL                    2500-3000 m                  > 4 weeks with daily hypoxic          Average 2% increase
Supplemental*1   or 8200-9800 ft                  exposure of 12-16 hrs       
                  
*1  (by artificial means, including altitude tents, hypoxic chambers)   
*2  (between 5000 m time trials before and after 4 weeks exposure in well-trained runners)   
Table 2

So really, for any positive or negative problems to occur, you would have to be up there for a while. A week isn't going to help or hurt much running wise unless you do something extremely out of the ordinary. Sorry to hijack this thread for a minute, but I don't want people getting scared to go to this camp. Just be smart.






These are sources used in the table.

WILBER, R., J. STRAY-GUNDERSEN, LEVINE, B.D. Effect of hypoxic “dose” on physiological responses and sea-level performance. Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise, 39:1590-1599, 2007

WILBER, R. Application of altitude/hypoxic training by elite athletes. Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise, 39:1610-1624, 2007
 
CHAPMAN, R., LEVINE, B, D.,  Altitude training for the marathon. Sports Medicine, 37:392-395, 2007 retrieved from http://web.ebscohost.com.erl.lib.byu.edu/ehost/results, 9/2007

Altitude- I'm going with Clyde and Adam on this one.  I think the added rest, camaraderie, and focus on running will give enough energy/motivation to run good mileage.  And, especially for everyone already living in SLC, Provo, Logan, etc., an extra 2000 feet or so in elevation won't make any difference.  The STG people might notice a small difference, but not much.  In college we would routinely race 2000 ft+ above training altitude, with no/very minimal difference in times.

And for anyone like me who does a lot of summer runs in the mountains, anyways, I'll actually be coming down in altitude!  Heck, I'm planning to do a marathon at 8000 feet!  Maybe I'll do the Leadville 100 next year just for kicks, too.3

Paul and jtshad, I LOVED your spouse motivation stories...

Clyde, great idea and fun place.  I love that area down there and have been looking for a good excuse to return soon.  As Paul mentioned we have talked about putting together a similar camp for a while, but since you are taking charge we can just worry about getting there and having fun.  That week should work fine for us, so we'll plan on it.  I like the Altitude, social aspect, and area so I am looking forward to it.  Let me know if I can help in anyway.

Josse I am running into the same problem with my hubby too.  I asked if he wanted to go and no offense to you all either but he doesnt exactly want to spend vacation time with all us runnners.Since this is a family friendly site I wont say his exact words:)  He said I could go if I wanted but we will see. We are so busy in the summer at work that it makes it hard to take alot time off and I already have time planned off to come up there a few times for races. So we will see. If you and MichelleL go up for the weekend I may come up too.

I really like the idea of a summer camp.  I've lived and trained a good portion of my life at or above 6500ft and felt like living at the higher altitude helped my running.  I'm not really concerned or should I say have a strong opinion either way on what a week vacationing up in the mountains is going to do to my overall fitness.  However, I am pretty certain that a week in July training up in Torrey is probably going to be a little more relaxing weather wise than a week of training in St. George.

Running while on vacation? I do disagree with Sasha on runners getting better while on vacation.  I see this camp as more of an opportunity to train with other dedicated runners and not really a vacation.  However, some might view it as a vacation (away from work, away from the house, and maybe other stresses).

Anyway, when I was in high school and later when I was coaching we would always take kids on a 3 day to week long summer camp up in the mountains.  Most of the kids had a great time, got excited about training and really came into the season with a better understanding of what we expected as coaches.

I remember reading a few years ago the book Train Hard Win Easy and it talked about some of the camps the Kenyans were doing together.  I think anytime you are around people that are successful, dedicated, and talented there are things you can learn.

I think the camp sounds like lots of fun, my only problem is I'm at scout camp the week that you are planning right now, so I'll be a no go this year.  But hey, I'm sure I'll get in plenty of running rounding up missing boy scouts.

Dustin: Hey Honey, they are putting together a running camp would you like to go?
Wifey: No, it is difficult enough living with one runner, why would I want to spend time with anymore.
Dustin: But it is Dave,Clyde, Steve, Mike, Wildbull and some of the northern guys.
Wifey: That is exactly my point.

Clyde - I think it is time for a challenge. Let's do this. You go to the camp, I'll stay home and train. Then we'll race each other at DesNews in the marathon. To make it more scientific, we should race each other right before the camp as well. How about Provo Freedom Run 10 K?

One week of running doesn't make you a better runner anyway (or worse). Running (especially marathoning) is more about long-term trends, health habits, and training. If you go to this "camp", go for the camaraderie, inspiration, and relaxation. You won't get any faster from a week in Torrey, but you will probably come out a lot more motivated! Not to mention that part of Utah is absolutely beautiful. I look forward to having a "local" as a tour guide too. It will surely beat sitting inside in an office all week.

Let's not get wrapped up in pride and silly challenges.

This sounds fun! I'm going to talk to my non-running hubby.  I think he feels like Josse & Marcie's husbands do! If I came I would bring the family (hubby & 2 kids) maybe they could hike, etc, while I ran? We'd probably want a room too. I must confess I would mostly be there for social aspect since I only log about 25 miles a week on average.  I do want to run w/ Mik'L, Michelle & whoever else is there for some daily 5-6 milers.  Will chat w/ fam and get back to you!

Paul - one week of running done right cannot make you faster, but one week of running done wrong can definitely make you slower. Which is why I think a camp like this should last no more than 3 days. It is more likely that you will do things wrong, better keep the damage to the minimum. And you will build friendships and get motivated in 3 days just as well. Not speak of the need to get time from work and other obligations that will be there to meet you in full force when you get back.

Fair enough. But hopefully there will be enough expertise at "camp" to not let anyone do anything stupid. Personally, I don't intend to do tempo runs or intervals every day. Nor would I expect to hit absurd mileage (although the three maps/day I would take would counteract mileage).

Frankly, some people just like to travel, like to spend money, and like to blow off work. I am one of those people, and "camp" is a good destination to do that. I don't think I need any other reason than that.

Amen!

I would love to do this if possible as well. Need to talk with the boss and see if we can squeeze this in. We have been wanting to do a family vacation down south at the parks anyway so this may work.

I really do not care if it helps or hurts my running for a short time and I highly doubt it will hurt anyones running. What matters more is it is a great opportunity to be around and train with other runners from the FRB. Sometimes running is or should be more than just trying to run fast times and crunching numbers; I truly appreciate the friends I have made over the years because of running more than the accomplishments themselves. I love this idea and think it would be awesome to spend time with fellow FRB members.

Cool idea, I'm already excited about it. All those pictures make me miss summer.... (sigh)

I talked to my wife, and we'll could come on Thursday night.... so I expect to be there. I'm excited to meet the rest of you, the camp sounds like a blast!

Clyde, I think you really have an awesome idea here!  I wish I could go hang with you guys for a week, but it will be a no go for me.  We have some family vacation time planned this summer and my kids are getting older, so spending time with them is a major priority for me.  Thanks, I appreciate your effort in trying to make running fun for everyone. 

Just my 2 cents, I don't possibly see how you would hurt yourself by participating in this event.  I attended many basketball and football camps, while in high school.  The fact of the matter is simple, coaches would not be pushing camps many times making them mandatory, if they did not produce results.  The knowledge, skills, friendships and just the enormous motivational boost I gained in my experiences with camps, was priceless.  Therfore Sasha, I will have to disagree with you.  This will be a great opportunity to gain workout knowledge from your peers.  Also, it's a nice break in the constant rigors of training, you now something to change things up and rejuvinate.  But maybe the single most important thing, would be to support your friends when they are trying to do something good.  I don't think Clyde has anything but good intentions here, so I am all for supporting him with this camp.  Even though I will not be attending, I will be more than happy to help anyway possible.  Good job Clyde, keep up the good work!

I'll be talking with my aunt and uncle this weekend about rooms and rates for the camp. So try to decide how long and how many rooms you may want so when I find out price and stuff we can plan all of that out. I know right now Paul wants a room, Dave and his family, The PV runners (boys, and girls?), Steve Hooper and family, possibly Jon and Cody... Anyways think about what days you will be down and I should know by the end of the week what kind of deal we can get.

I need to talk to the family about going but if we do we would definitely want a room as well. We would need a room with two queens if available and would look at coming for the week, maybe 7-12 July if we can make it. I can let you know for sure pretty soon.

I realized the camp dates will be over my non-running hubby's Birthday.  I think that will count us out.  Sounds fun though, I'll watch for more discussion.

I've confirmed the price for the rooms. It will be 45$ a night. She is holding all the rooms for those dates for us for about two weeks and then I'll need to confirm exactly who needs what and when you'll need it. So let me know asap. FYI there is still free grass for your tent to help the pocket book.

So what are the exact dates?

It will be the week of July 7-12. That's Monday-Saturday. That is when I'll be there and have things set up. Others have mentioned that they will be there for the whole week as well but many plan on maybe just doing Thurs-Sat or whatever works with their schedule.

What is their cancellation policy on the rooms?  I would like to reserve one but reserve the right to cancel with adequate notice.

I'm not sure what their policy is... but I'm guessing 24 hours or something normal like that. However I'd like to know what peoples plans are on a fairly firm scale within a couple weeks. Then if something bad happens you could always cancel.
But to all- don't reserve a room if your only like 30% sure your coming. Because there are only 12 rooms and they will go fast to runners and the normal tourists. I'd say to reserve a room if your 85% or better for sure your coming and then if something comes up you can cancel and then we can do the switch-o-changeo thing.

Ok, so I got around to telling Paul about the camp.  He was asking about what our options for summer trips.  I mentioned the running camp.  He said that if he was good at giving the stink-eye I would be getting it right now.  :'(  I'll see if I can win him over to the idea, but it doesn't sound fun at all to him. 

I got the same reaction from my husband.

I had buy-in from my roommate, but I think I'm going to end up passing this year since I'm doing Northwest Passage Relay later in the month.

I am afraid that I am with Paul on this one.  I just dont have enough vacation time to do everything I want to and will have to pass.  Bummer.

I am still planning on coming sometime because I wanted to go to that area this summer anyway.  It might be Monday-Wednesday for us though, we'll see.  We will likely tent it!