Fast Running Blog

I am curious which race people are planning on running and why.  We want to know what would make a person chose the Ogden Marathon over the Utah Valley Marathon.  We want to become the marathon of choice in Utah.  To do this we need your feedback.  We have already made many changes mentioned on our website for 2010 from runner feedback (like 5 deep prize money, masters money, new faster course, addition of the half marathon, entertainment along the course, etc.) Please be honest in your comments so that we can see if you prefer our race why that is, and if not we can see how to improve.  Thanks for the help.

I'm hoping to run both marathons this year as part of the grand slam.  Hyrum, the new course looks like it should be a really good course.  I know I've always enjoyed running down Provo Canyon.  I think with time your race will continue to grow in popularity.  To me June seems like the perfect time for your marathon.  Salt Lake in April, Ogden in May, Utah Valley Jun, Des New July, Park City Aug, Top of Utah Sept, St. George Oct just lots of options for runners to chose from.

Great job on the prize purse. I think having 5 deep for both the full and the half will make this a pretty big event. Simplicity of the course is nice too. Time bonuses are great; it's the only Utah event to have this. I wasn't really considering this race until I saw the time bonuses. Your efforts to reach out to elites and semi-elites is appreciated.

I would say there is about a 0% chance I would run the marathon, but some chance that I would run the half. The biggest thing for me going against this race is that it is an aided course, and not Olympic Trials eligible.  Plus times and PR's set on aided courses get almost no respect anywhere besides Utah, so aside from the prize it doesn't do me much good to run this race (or any other downhill race in Utah). I know that's ticky-tack, but others are in the same boat. I'd love to see the courses flattened out a bit. Right now, I'm planning on going back to RnR Seattle to try to lower my half marathon PR (and perhaps get the Trials standard), but if that falls through I'd probably come to Provo for the half. With that 1:07 bonus, I would expect it to be a hot race.

I love the Ogden event, but 0% chance I'll do it this year.

Hyrum, I like the addition of the prize money depth and Master's money and it looks like you have made some good changes to the course and rerouted the second half to get rid of the less than desirable sections (under the roads, behind the minimall, etc.).   I didn't like the amount of concrete that you had to run on in the first half in the canyon however.   I agree with Paul's point on aided courses detracting from some, but to others this could be a positive as well. 

Your support on the course was good, but I do think that Ogden sets a great example with their aid stations.   The amount of gels and points at which they give them out is outstanding. 

I liked the finish line being at the mall (helped with family waiting...warmth, parking, bathrooms, etc.) and your finish line events are nearly on par (just a bit different).   The access to quality places to stay near the bus loading/finish line in both cities is a detractor however. 

Just some quick feedback.

This looks like a very nice marathon. I like the master's money too. I am not fast enough to ever earn it, but I think it is a a nice gesture and a morale boost to acknowledge the elite older runners, and may attract some very good older runners. I like the timing too, as I find it very hard to train for an April or May marathon with the cold Utah weather and winter inversions. June is good timing, and I can still train for and run the Bolder Boulder 10K. I may very well sign up and run this race, unless it interferes with my son's annual scouting super activity (these usually occur early in June). Anyway, it looks like a great race!
Oh, and the price is great, and I like the fact that the price stays low until May 10. It is tough to have to sign up for a marathon way early to get in and get the lower price, then get hurt training and lose the investment(that happened to me last year training for Ogden, which I had to skip).

I echo the positive comments above. The aided course thing really wont be a big deal for you. Lets face it. Your target audience of runners isn't a massive group of Olympic Trials hopefuls. Rather it's the general runners of the region who want to hit a BQ or a personal PR and an aided course helps with those. That's all STG brings to the table and there is a lottery for that race. No money for the elite runners, just a aided PR for their bio. I think with your more central location and proximity to the masses that this marathon could end up being bigger than STG. Stay committed for a few years and market it well. The June date makes the weather more predictable and gives cold wether runners time to train outside before jumping into something. Actually UV and STG make great bookend marathons to a racing season if your a Utahn.
Keep it up man your making a lot of us happy with what your doing for the elite guys. I hope that come June I'll be fully healthy, fit and ready to have a great race in Provo.

I really like the Ogden course and the scenery in May.  I'm running it again next spring for the 5th time to try and improve my time, since i have some history there to compare my performance to.  Great course, great time of year, great volunteers.  My biggest complaints:  1) their registration costs keep going up 2) they've been less than accomodating in answering emails and/or resolving problems

The UVM course looks good and I am definitely considering running it.  (Heard about it too late the 1st year, and was injured last year...)  The fact that you are taking the time to get feedback and suggestions and implementing improvements to the race is a nice selling point in my book. 

It looks like you have a nice prize structure for attracting a larger elite field.  Maybe you could consider giving comps for the following year to the age-group winners.  That would set your race apart even more.

Just keep doing what you are doing and it should continue to grow.  I ran it the first year and there were a few things that I really did not like about the course but I believe that you have addressed them.  With that said, I think that you need to be careful about having a different course every year.  The fact that you are willing to ask for and take the advice of the runners shows that you really care about making it a good race.  Runners recognize and appreciate this and will support your race because of it.  As the word gets out, your race will become a goal race for people instead of something that they run as a training run or because they didn't get into Boston or Ogden.

I like the idea about age division winners getting a comp to the next year. I also agree that consistency is important in a marathon course. The course we have now is the course we wanted from the beginning, but only now are we big enough for Provo and UDOT to close down the right lane of a US highway.  We want to keep this new course forever if the runners enjoy it.

Hyrum,

The course change looks good. We were not too happy with the concrete at the beginning, but it was liveable. 

Ogden has amazing scenery and it will be hard to match that down in Utah Valley. 

The only other change I would suggest on top of what has been mentioned would be the packet pickup.  It was pretty bad last year and most marathoners do not want to stand in line for an hour or more the night before a marathon.  There has to be a way to speed that up to reduce the frustration level there.

I would echo Maurine on the packet pickup, that was a bit long. 

I like both marathons for different reasons.  I would likely do UV over Ogden because it is so close to home.  I think the course change is going to be good and offer better scenery as well.  I am excited to see it grow.  I do agree with Maurine that there need to be something done with the packet pick up.

The packet pick up thing was weird.  We had like 15 people there helping, but I believe the issue was limiting the pickup from 5-9pm.  This had the early birds coming at the same time as the people who just got off work.  The last 1.5 hours had little to no line.  To remedie the situation we are going to start at least 5 hours earlier so that the people that come early are not coming the same time as the people that just got off from work.  We will also try to have a larger area in the mall and have more helpers.  I am open to other ideas, but that is the planned solution for now.

Personally I have been debating the same question.  I want to run one of the marathons.  Ogden I closer and they do put on a good race.  I have not run the Utah Valley Marathon.  The main issue I have with running the Utah Valley Marathon is the Wasatch Back Relay.  The Wasatch Back Relay is a week after the Utah Valley Marathon.  My wife and I like to run the relay because it is one of the few running events my wife and I can truely do together.  My wife and I run at such different paces I ran the St. George in 3:01 and my wife ran it in 6:05.   The wasatch Back relay has over 7000 people in it, so you are competting with a very large event pretty close to your race.  So the biggest reason choosing the Ogden over Utah valley has nothing to do with Prize money or the way the race is orginized.  The prize not an issue for me, and for most of the runners that are in the marathon.  Only a small portion of the runners even think they have a chance of winning an award.  I have heard good things about the Utah Valley course and the way it is run.  What makes a race great for me is the course and the way the aid stations are run and the finishing area is run.   

My wife and I are still looking for a team that we could both be on.  So if we don't find a team, or the team we find doesn't care if I only do 8 min miles I will do the Utah Valley Marathon.

I really like the idea of running by Deer Creek reservoir and down through Provo Canyon. I haven't seen the Ogden route, but this area is about as beautiful as anywhere I've ever seen. I must have missed this, but do you run on the highway all the way down the canyon? Or do you run on the river trail? I'd prefer the latter, though that might be hard with a large race. I also like the June timing. So maybe I'll give it a go.

Another thing I like is the price. Very reasonable, which is important to me. Even better would be a no t-shirt option.

One other suggestion you might consider in the future is to rename it to the Bridal Veil Marathon or the Deer Creek Marathon or something else, since only a small portion of the race is actually in Utah Valley (though the most important part). Just an idea.

I like the name Utah valley marathon I think it sounds better.

The name is good.  A very small portion of Ogden and St George are actually run in those cities.

In answer to your question the course is entirely on road (20 miles of it is on US 189).  Our fist year was on the river trail, and even as a small race Josse can tell you that it was congested for the first bit.  The highway will still allow you to see Deer Creek Reservoir, and Bridal Veil Falls.  The other issue with the river trail is that Provo City says our race is getting too big for it, and they asked us to move to the street so we can continue to grow.

I haven't run the UVM, but have run Ogden and I'm registered again for 2010.  The main reason is that I usually only run 2 full marathons per year.  SGM in the fall and Ogden or Boston in the spring the last few years.  I've only done 3 in one year once and that was too much for me and I ended up getting injured.  I guess I'm not of the Grand Slam breed.  For me, the scenic portions of the UVM course can be satisfied by running the Provo 1/2 marathon in August, so I feel like I can capture the scenic spendor of both areas by doing Ogden and then the Provo 1/2 marathon this next year (although I really prefer Hobble Creek over Provo when I can get in to that one).  If I BQ and run Boston again, maybe I would then do the Ogden 1/2 and try the UVM for 2011, however the previous comment about the proximity to the Wasatch Back Relay is also a valid point for me.  I believe if there are a lot of concerns about aided courses and prize money vs. non-aided courses for the elite, the UVM probably needs to decide who they want to cater to the most.  As you know, SGM has been very successful having an elevation aided course w/o a prize money structure.

Elites running in the Utah Valley (4500 feet of elevation) have absolutely nothing to lose from the course being aided. If it was not, it would take a 2:14 flat sea-level course guy to break 2:19. If you are a 2:14 guy, why take your chances in Utah Valley?  For an elite the only reasons to run a race in Utah Valley are prize money and a chance to compete against a strong field, aided course or not.

BQ-aspiring runners, on the other hand, have a lot to lose from a non-aided course. For them it will be extra 7-10 minutes, which throws their hopes out of the window if BQ is a challenge for them at all.

My issues with the Utah Valley Marathon last year:
1.  Packet pick-up very slow.  Your tired when you drive the day/night before and the last thing you want to do is stand in line.
2.  One of the aid stations had no one there when I past on the Provo trail so I missed my water quench.   The aid stations I thought could have been a lot better more like Ogden's.
3.  The second part of the course is too weird with all the tunnels, turns and small area to run (but I see you've fixed that this year).

I don't have a complaint about the concrete that really didn't bother me.


I will be considering running the course this year.  Each year with feedback conditions for this race I'm sure will get better.

I know I'm late adding my comment, but one thing which distinguishes well run marathons is a well organized starting location.  In addition to plenty of port-a-potties, (I know this is semi-graphic) you really should consider having at least one of those tented portable urinals so that men just wishing to urinate can quickly get in line for the urinal which moves remarkably well when nobody has to stop take care of other business -- this also helps prevent the last minute going anywhere in order to safeguard the watershed issues.  This will also speed up the port-a-potty lines for the women if there are fewer men having to stand in them.  I imagine, it is probably very cost effective too, but have not looked into it.  For what its worth, although it may be difficult to enforce, even designating a number of the port-a-potties for urination only would at least allow people to get in line without the aggravation of wondering whether they were picking a "slow" line.  (Come on, who hasn't been aggravated by this, admit it.)  Of course, if you do this and it is successful, I suppose you'll be a trend setter but you would always be able to claim you were the first in Utah.

Some discussion on my blog. (http://rivertonpaul.fastrunningblog.com/blog--I-posted-this-on-forum-but-wanted/01-28-2010.html)

Canyonlands Half Marathon has done this in the past. It was beautiful.

Hyrum here are a few comments from a mid-packer (3:36 PR at Mesquite) who ran Ogden last year.  I have not run UVM but I have a lot of friends that did last year and had a great experience.  I love what you are doing with the Marathon and wish I would have known about the course change before I signed up for Ogden this year.  For someone like me who is hunting the BQ your course is very appealing.  It looks much faster than Ogden.  I also love the perks for people who have BQ'd or that BQ at your marathon.  What a great idea to provide something that celebrates your BQ achievement.  I think your efforts to do nice things to recognize and reward better marathoners (elites and BQ'ers) is absolutely great.  I think you probably get way more bang for the buck at UVM than Ogden.  Even your race shirt was 150% better than Ogden's last year.

Things I love about Ogden:

1.  Great volunteer army
2.  Awesome start line - very open, fire pits, tons of porta-potties, easy drop-off of clothing bag and good organization
3.  Great finish line - lots of spectators, bells for the kids, bleachers for the fans.  Great finisher's area.
4.  Pretty good Expo.
5.  Pretty good course

The thing I hate the most about Ogden though is that I don't feel I am getting my money's worth.  Too expensive.  Even the medal was crappy.  Their web site (even their new one) also sucks.

Bottom line is that if I had not signed up for Ogden already I would be doing my BQ attempt at UVM.  Matt is right though, your marathon will conflict with Wasatch Back.  However, I would not change the date.  I think this is something you will just have to live with.  In the end I think the biggest factor is how your team executes on Marathon day.  Nothing sours a marathon more than poor organization by the directors and the volunteers (think Hobble Creek last year, maybe I'm being harsh but what a cluster that was).  If you don't execute on marathon day then all the other stuff is just fluff.  Good luck this year, you may see me there if I fail at Ogden.

I loved running Ogden last year so I signed up again. Now seeing the course change I wish I was running Utah Valley this year. With Ogden only a month apart I would need to choose between the two and given the comments that I have heard about this race I would change to Utah Valley if I hadn't already paid for Ogden.
Hyrum, It looks like you are really trying to make this a great marathon!

Thank you for your kind words.  I also am very interested in the portable tent urinal.  I think that would help the port-a-pottie lines move much faster, and would give athletes more time to get prepared for the race.  Everyone has been so helpful, and we hope to do everything we can to make this race the best it can be.  We can't do everything everyone wants, because we sometimes get conflicting requests from different athletes, and we are also limited by what governments will allow.  We will however, do everything in our power to please as many of you as possible.  I myself run marathons, but each of you have given ideas that I had not thought of.

On a lighter note we finally have some updated photos on the website from the 2009 race that can be viewed at: http://utahvalleymarathon.com/marathon-in-utah-photos.php (http://utahvalleymarathon.com/marathon-in-utah-photos.php)

We should also have a newer video on the homepage in the next couple days that incorporates race footage with the testimonials.

Jose - if Ogden would let you, would you consider changing to half in Ogden so you can run UVM on fresh legs?

Sasha - Absolutely. Is there a chance that can happen?

I remember they have allowed that in the past. Give them a call and see.

We are really excited about the growth of the marathon this year.  We have just about hit last years number of participants and it is only March 2nd.  There is still almost 3.5 months till the race.  If we keep up our current pace per day of how many are signing up we will have over 3500 athletes in the event.  To compare last year we only had 1170 athletes in the event, so this is incredible growth.  The thing that is possibly more amazing to me is that just 2 years ago we only had 240 athletes.  To go from 240 to 3500 in two years is not bad.  I don't know if it is the new course or the advertising that is making the biggest difference.  We are just excited about the response from everyone.  http://www.utahvalleymarathon.com

I'm sure the advertising and new course really helped, but also your attention to what runners actually want goes a long way in building respect and support in the local runner community.

Just curious. Are those numbers for the marathon only? Or for all races? If it's marathon only, that would probably be the second largest in UT if you hit 3500.

When I say we are on track for 3,500 that is referring to all three races combined.  This is still going to make for a larger marathon by Utah standards though.  Only 1,000 of that will be half marathon, and we are expecting less than 1,000 of that to be the 5K.  We think that we will have between 1,500-2,000 in the marathon, but we are ahead of that pace so who knows what will happen. Regardless of where we end up we already have past last years total, and we still have more than 3 months till race day.

Sounds like a fun race.  Sign me up.  I just signed up, looking forward to a great race.

Hey I was wondering how feasible/legal/safe it is to do training runs on the UVM course between the starting line and University? Obviously I don't mean running with traffic on the right hand side of the road like the actual race, but towards incoming traffic off the side of the road on the left. Certainly can't be any worse than running down the SGM course on a dark September morning which I know a ton of runners do.

I feel like the concrete road pounds the legs alot harder than running on the river trail and it would be to get the legs accustomed to it beforehand. Plus it would just be nice to be familiar with the course beforehand.

If it is feasible - any UVM runners interested in getting together and maybe doing a few Saturday long runs down the course in April/May?  Currently I'm thinking I'll be shooting for just under 3:10

Tom-

Last week me and a couple friends ran the last half of the marathon course on the side of the road that the marathon will be on (with the flow of traffic).  We stayed on the shoulder, and it wasn't too bad.  I would not recommend doing this while it is dark outside, and there are a couple times on the paved sections in the canyon that have a smaller shoulder (in these spots we ran on the dirt instead of the shoulder).  I have not tried running any of the first part of the race, but I think that would be a fun run.  I knew that the course would be fast, but it felt even faster than I expected.  The concrete didn't bother me too much.  Not all of it is concrete.  When you run it you will notice that there are many paved sections.  If you end up running the full marathon to train I think that the first almost 10 miles are entirely paved (I could be wrong, but I know that at least the first 10K is paved).  http://runuv.com 

Hyrum:

What attracted me was the fact that I saw you posting on st george marathon group page this " If you like the St. George Marathon you will love the Utah Valley Marathon. Over 1500 feet in elevation drop. It is beautiful, and goes by a waterfall, and Deer Creek Reservoir. See more details at " So I looked at the website, elevation and I became interested...good job of advertising it.. :)

I don't think you can compare the beauty of Ogden with very many marathons anywhere... it is an incredibly scenic course... and definately a good test of fitness course!
It is the perfect course for a marathon... I am curious is it considered an aided course?? It is also a very well ran race... very good Volunteer help!

According to USATF guidelines it is an aided course. 
Unaided versus Aided:  USATF Rule 185.5:
(a) The course must not have a net decrease in elevation from start to finish exceeding one part per thousand (i.e., one meter per kilometer.)
(b) The start and finish of the race must lie no more than 30% of the race distance apart as measured along the straight line between them, except when it can be shown that the average component of the wind direction at the head of the race (the lead runner) did not constitue a significant tail wind. 

The elevation change for a marathon cannot exceed 138 feet (is my math correct????).

Yep that right, anything over ~150-ish feet of net drop is "aided". It's basically the guideline IAAF uses for a course to be world-record eligible. Similar to how a sprint or jump record is void if there is too much tailwind, a road race record is void if there is too much drop. In the both cases, the time is technically considered "aided".

Based off that criteria, I am a newby looking at this, running a non-aided course compared to the Ogden MArathon, no wind, which is easier?? I wonder with the elevation and the already mentioned rollers from mile 8-17... I have never done a completely flat course... just curious??

Ogden is probably slower than a flat course at sea level, but is faster than a flat course at 5000'. So it's a little bit relative.

On a related note, good luck to everyone tomorrow at Ogden!