Fast Running Blog

I posted a discussion on the forum a few weeks ago about whether I should run the Jacksonville marathon again.  After reading everyone's advice and talking to my friend who is in Florida, the decision was made that we will go back to Jacksonville.  This race is 19 weeks away.  As you will see from my log, I have been increasing my mileage for the past few weeks, hitting 40 miles for the first time since I trained for Jacksonville last year.  My goal is still to get to 55-60 miles per week, which I believe that I will reach in the next 2 to 3 weeks.  Normally at this time, I am figuring what training plan to use and would start "official" training in the next couple of weeks.  I have been doing some research on the discussion forums and see that "Advanced Marathoning" is a crowd favorite.  I plan on heading to the bookstore tomorrow to take a closer look at it.  I did see that the book offers 12 and 18 week plans for people running at least 55 miles per week. 

I have a few questions, so thank you in advance for your patience as I go through them.  First of all, do you guys recommend this marathon training plan for me?  If not, what do you recommend?  If I use this plan, do I need to use the 12 week plan because I am not up to 55 miles yet or should I go ahead and just attempt to jump up to 55 miles carefully, to start the plan next week?  As you will see from my log, I have ran a few races and have done well for me.  When I do race, should I be making up the mileage missed prior to the race?  For example, I am signed up for a 5 mile race this Saturday.  Do I need to get the rest of my mileage minus the five prior to Saturday or just do what I plan to do Monday through Friday and race on Saturday?  Also, at what point should I be thinking about my marathon pace?  I feel as though that I may be able to do better than my original goal of 4:30.  Since my husband and I moved to Georgia a couple of months ago, I am primarily running hilly routes, unless I am on the treadmill at the gym. Jacksonville is a flat course.

Before I forget, because I don't believe that it is listed anywhere, I am 37 years old, 5'4" and my weight has been averaging around 116lbs.  I am also a shellfish eating vegetarian.  I love the sweets, but have been limiting them to the weekends only.  I am currently an out-of-work school teacher, but am looking for work daily. School has already begun here, therefore, I could be back to work at any time, which means I will really have to figure out if I can get all of mileage in prior to work.  It still takes me about an hour to get 6 miles in.  This past year, I was getting up between 4:15 and 4:30 am to get my workouts in before work.  I don't like running after work, because I wind up thinking about it all day long.  I also have to think about safety in the morning and am already checking to see if I where I currently run now, will be light enough to run in the early morning.  I would run with a partner, but I haven't met anyone yet to run with.

Thank you again for reviewing my log and I look forward to reading everyone's advice.  Happy running!

I can't really comment on advanced marathoning because I have never looked at the book, or the training plans, but as far as racing is concerned I would just add in a few extra miles after the race in order to get to the distance you are supposed to run.  For example, if you are supposed to do a 15 mile long run and you run a 5 mile race, run a couple miles as a warm-up, then run the race followed by a nice long cool-down until you have made it to 15 miles.  Or, if the race is not important to you, run all of your miles first and then run the race just to finish up your mileage for the day.  You will be tired and your race will be slower using the second option, but it will probably give you better marathon specific preparation as you will be racing on tired legs, which is exactly what you are doing the second half of a marathon.

On a side note, I can feel your pain as far as looking for a job is concerned.  I just graduated with a degree in physical education and I haven't found a job yet either.  School here in Utah starts in about 2 weeks, and I am feeling the heat knowing that the likelihood of me finding a job is getting less and less as time passes onward.  Anyhow, good luck on the job search and the running!  Hopefully everything works out fine.

Jennifer and Jeff (off main topic comment),
Good luck on getting that job.  I didn't get my first teaching job until just over 1 week before school started.  So hopefully something will come around.
Training-wise, years and years of base are the key to any successful, enjoyable, and injury-free (as possible) running career.  Keep building that base with something like a controlled tempo once a week and the PR's will come and the fun will continue!

Jennifer:

I believe in only one plan when we are dealing with somebody who has not run at least 70 miles a week consistently for three years. Get up to 70 miles a week as quickly as you can without injuries, and do it for three years. The pace does not matter as long as it does not affect your ability to run the mileage.  This is a true principle, but it does kill the craft of training plans, and is impossible to sell, so you do not see this marketed in too many places.

The reason for the above is that tempo runs and speed work are rather meaningless when the aerobic base is not present. What is the purpose of speed work and tempos?  Neuromuscular stimulus and  high-end aerobic stimulus. When aerobic support is lacking, an attempt at speed work provides no neuromuscular stimulus because the heart cannot keep up with the muscles. High-end aerobic stimulus does not work that well either because it does not have the low end support, so instead of high-end aerobic you get mostly anaerobic. The situation changes drastically once we have the aerobic base. But it takes a while to build it.

In short, the practical recommendation is keep increasing your mileage and do not worry about plans. Ditto to what Jeff said about races and mileage. However, if for one reason or another you miss a day, do not make up in the next few days, just resume your normal training. The train is gone. Wait for the next one, do not chase this one on foot.

Thank you so much for the feedback.  This website has been great!

Dave and Jeff (on the work topic) - I am just going to do my best to stay positive that something will turn up either via substitute teaching or a really early retirement from someone.  Jeff - Good Luck as well on your search!  If you are unable to find something prior to the start of school, at least sign up to substitute teach.  I have been recommended to do this by many as a foot in the door.

As far as the running goes, which was the point of this email to begin with, I see what you guys are saying about just continuing to increase my base.  I also understand that when I am going to race, just do what I intended to do that week and just race what I am going to race without worrying about making up the mileage.  Based on my past marathons, I do know that I need to incorporate the long run, which I have always done on Saturday.  Currently, I have been increasing my mileage during the week, but have maintained the 10 miles on Saturday unless I am racing.  Should I go ahead and start increasing my Saturday run as well, maybe a couple of miles a week for a few weeks, bring it back down for a week and then continue on up until I get to 20 miles?  In training past, I have run anywhere from 1 to 3 20-milers, with the final one being three weeks prior to race day.

Thanks again!

Jennifer

Long run on Saturday is a great idea. Even if you are racing you can still do your long run with the race being a part of it.

Some more thoughts based on your recent racing and training. I would not be surprised if you cracked 4:00 in the marathon in your next race. The speed is there. You have plenty of speed reserve. It is just a matter of having the endurance to last the distance.

For a confidence builder it would be nice if you could race a half. Go out at 8:30 pace. See what happens. If you crash, that's OK. Keep track mile by mile how badly if it does happen, this will help us figure out the correct pacing for the marathon. But I have a suspicion you will not blow up at all, you'll just keep going that pace all the way to the finish.

Thanks.  Cracking 4:00 would be awesome!  I have definitely noticed that in past races, especially the half, I do worry if I am going to be able to maintain a particular pace, especially around miles 6 and 7.

  I just checked the racing schedule and it looks like the earliest half marathon would be in October.  I will take a closer look at them to see what will fit schedule-wise as well as what the courses look like.  I know that at least a couple of them are trail runs.

How far are you willing/able to travel?

I have actually traveled pretty far in the past, completing one of my half marathons in Vancouver, British Columbia (it was for charity).  It really all depends.  I am unemployed right now so I really shouldn't spend too much money on travel, hotel, etc.  If it was a situation that I couldn't pass up, I am obviously willing to consider it.  When I am back to work, the financial side won't be an issue, it will just all depend on where, when and if I am going to go alone or see if one of my friends from Florida would want to join me.  My husband tends to have to work on the weekends, and many times it is last minute.

What did you have in mind?

I found the following:

Hottest Half in Dallas on Aug 23 - 13 hour drive from Athens
Lewis & Clark in St. Charles, MO (near St. Louis) on Sep 13 - 10 hour drive
Oak Brook Half in Oak Brook, IL on Sep 7th (Labor Day) - 12 hour drive
Chicago Half on Sep 13 - 12 hour drive
Morse Mini Marathon on Sep 5th in Arcadia, IN - 10 hour drive
Rock'n'Roll Half in Virginia Beach on Sep 6th - 9 hour drive

I used http://www.usatf.org/calendars/ and searched the dates from Aug 15 to Sep 15th choosing half-marathon as the distance and selecting the country United States and then I looked at the map went through all of the states that looked like they could be reached from Athens, GA in 13 hours or less. I believe that calendar is the most comprehensive. Most race directions get their insurance through USATF, and this is achieved by getting the race sanctioned. All sanctioned races get put into that calendar.

This was a very educational exercise. I assumed that since in the same date range we had  4 halves in Utah, a state with the population of only 2.7 million, that I would have no problem finding at least one half in Georgia with the population of 9.6 million, or at least in a nearby state given the high population density in the region. I was greatly surprised. I had to go out pretty far, 9 hour drive was the closest.

Then I checked other states in the West. California (population 36.7 million) had only 3. Colorado (population 4.9 million), supposedly the mecca of running (I remember dreaming of moving to Boulder when I was in Russia) had only 2. Oregon (population 3.7 million), supposedly another mecca of running, had none! Maybe they have been digressing over the years from the mecca of running to the mecca of pot :-) Nothing in Nevada or Arizona, so much for the myth of active West. Nothing in Idaho, although it should have picked up the Pocatello Half. I guess the calendar is not as comprehensive as I thought, or maybe Pocatello is dragging their feet on sanctioning.  They'd better hurry then, USATF charges a $150 late fee. Actually, it is too late now they'd be paying it anyway unless they get their insurance somewhere else. Nothing in Montana. Nor surprising. I always thought that Bozeman was missing the second o after the first. Found one half in Washington (population 6.5 million).

So my conclusion is while Utah may not be the mecca of competitive running yet, it is definitely the mecca of jogging. Now we just need to spice it up a bit.

Another great site for race listings in runningintheusa.com.

Pocatello is a sanctioned and certified race through USATF.

Jeff - that's what's odd. I was expecting them to be sanctioned. They should be on the USATF calendar if their sanctioning is current. Somebody somewhere dropped the ball either on the USATF side or on the race directors.

Jennifer - on second thought a 9+ hour drive might be an overkill just to find out what you can do in the half. You can do a time trial instead. Measure out a nice low-traffic flat loop in your neighborhood about 3 miles long ideally with a measuring wheel (you can get one online for $20 or so), or with the Course Tool otherwise. Do not measure it with a Garmin unless you are willing to take 10+ measurements under clear skies, and even then it does not beat the wheel. Race that loop 4 or 5 times without stopping, time your splits. This would make a nice long run for marathon conditioning.

WOW!  Not that is what I call research!  I thank you so much for taking the time to do that check. I have a feeling that your idea of the 3 mile loop may be a better option.  I will just need to locate that 3 mile flat loop. The roads around here tend to be a bit hilly, but I will do my research and see what I can find. 

The earliest race that I know of in this state is the beginning of October.  It is part of the new series of half marathons that are being put on.  The next one after that isn't until the end of the month.  My guess is that they don't put on these races prior to October due to the heat.  I encountered the same issue when I was living in Florida.

I am currently working on getting to that 60 mpw goal as well as training for the marathon.  I decided that I would get in 8-9 miles per day Monday through Friday and for Saturday, I am using the Advanced Marathoning (up to 55 mpw) long run schedule.  I need structure when I train and thought that this would be a good combination.  My question is this, on some of the long runs, I am suppose to run a portion of the mileage at marathon pace.  I am not sure as to what pace I should aim for at this point.  I ran 15 on Saturday at a 10:30 / mile average pace.  I just ran and didn't focus on a certain pace.  I ran comfortably.  Any suggestions?  Thanks!

At this point I would just run those 15 at a decent pace and not worry too much about if it is target marathon pace. In fact, for the next year I would just run the miles at the pace that you can handle and not worry about hitting a particular pace in any workout. Two reasons. One,  the limit is still aerobic conditioning at this point and aerobic conditioning happens at any reasonable pace. The second reason is that your fitness keeps changing very rapidly and it is impossible to hit your true 5 K, 10 K, half-marathon, or marathon pace on any given day anyway.

Okay.  If I just go out there and run like you say, which is fine with me, will I be doing the same come race day?  I know that I am still a good three months away, and have a lot of training to go, but I am just trying to get an idea of how I will pace myself that day.  Or, is this something that should be looked at as I get closer to race day?  Thanks again for your advice.

What you should do before the marathon is run a few tune-up races or time trials. Those will give you an idea of a good target pace in the marathon. E.g if you are able to run the half at 8:30 per mile, it is probably safe to pace yourself at 9:00 in the marathon.

I understand.  I guess it is time then to finally pick a half marathon then.  There are a few in October to choose from.  Thanks again for the advice.

I am scheduled to run the Silver Comet Half Marathon this weekend to gauge what my time will be like for the marathon.  Should I be cutting back on my mileage at all this week?  I have already run Sunday and Monday, but will be resting today, since I haven't a day off since last Tuesday.  Also, should I still try and run at an 8:30 minute/ mile pace and see how I do and then if I can't maintain that pace, then slow it down?

Thanks again for the advice.

Jennifer:

I looked at your recent training. Yes, I think treating this race as a fast long run and trying to see how long you can hold 8:30 for is a good idea. My feeling is that you have the fitness to run that pace all the way, but it will be scary because you have not yet raced a true half. By "true" I mean that when you have enough endurance, a half feels very different. It basically becomes a long 5 K - you start breathing hard in the first half mile, your legs are moving quick, you feel pain, but your endurance carries you to the finish.

Maybe to overcome that fear try 2 miles tomorrow at 8:30 pace and keep telling yourself that you can do it for the half even if it does feel aggressive.

During the race tell yourself you get $1000 for every mile at 8:30 or faster, and 0 for anything slower. You still get paid for the fast miles even if you slow down to 12:00 in the slow miles to pay for the fast start. Trying to get as much money as you can.

Sounds like a plan to me.  I will try those two miles at an 8:30 pace this afternoon when I go for my run.

One more thing; should I just maintain my mileage for the rest of the week or do I need to cut back at all to rest my legs?

Thanks again.

If you feel good, maintain the mileage. Your half performance will be a bit slower, but this will help in the marathon.