Logging miles/pace

[Nathan Bundy]

Started out this morning at marathon pace for the first 2.5, for me that is 7:30/mile I think... Hope to get that to about 7:00 to qualify for Boston. I ran St. George this year at 7:15 for the first 13, then calves cramped up due to lack of taining and finished with an overall pace of 8:15!

The next 3.1 on this morning's run was at 6:15/mile, which is actually faster than any 5K I've ran this year. Currently, fastest this year was about 20:00. But then again that was back in June and only a few months after starting to run again after about 6 years off!

So my question is, what is my real marathon pace? Should it be 7:00 now, or should I work down to that?

Also, what should I be running threshold at? VO2 max?

Easy miles are just what ever feels comfortable right?

Thanks for any help, my high school distance coach didn't teach me all this! (Thanks a lot Dave...)

[Sasha Pachev]

Nate:

My opinion is that marathon training pace for somebody who cannot yet run the full marathon at his true marathon pace should still be the true marathon pace. In other words, add about 30 seconds per mile to what you can race in a 5 K even if you know you cannot go full 26 that fast. Overtime you'll be able to do it.

Threshold run should be by feel more than by pace. You should be breathing hard, but still be in control. For an untrained runner, probably 5 K race pace.

VO2 Max for an untrained runner is the mile race pace.

So for you - assuming you can race a 5 K at 6:15, then your marathon pace - 6:45, threshold around 6:30, and VO2 Max - 5:45.

Having said the above, in all honesty there is no VO2 Max or threshold, it is just our imagination. Just get out and run comfortably hard, as hard as you can, but not so hard you cannot recover, and do not worry about hitting some magic pace target.

[Nathan Bundy]

Thanks Sasha, that is good to know...

Betweeen what you and Dave Holt have commented, I gather I should just keep logging the miles and the pace will come in time...

I only joined a week or so ago and reading your articles and your training blog has really helped me realize what I can do to acheive what I have always felt I could but never really knew how. I don't know if I have the dedication to get under 2:30 like you and some of the others, but under 3:00 seems to be so attainable now. I almost started a different training program last week that would have probably hurt more than help.

Like many novice runners I thought I needed to get faster each run or I didn't feel like the miles meant as much. Then I went running with the club here in St. George and was very surprised when Dave and Logan and the others were going at an 8 min/mile pace. It made me wonder and that is what brought me to the blog.

[Dave Holt]

Hey 8 minute pace is pushing it sometimes, you should join us on a 9 minuter!

[Jeff Linger]

Wow. I'm surprised that no-one has really responded to your comments Sasha. Although in the long run, you may be correct about 'true marathon pace'. I would think that this might have left Nathan thinking he should be able to get down to a 6:45 in the near future. You might have done well to suggest how long it will take to get to that pace. I doubt there is a running calculator site out there that would predict a marathon race pace of 30 seconds/mile slower than a 5k race pace. McMillan.com puts your marathon pace at 7:10s off a 6:15/mile 5k, Nathan. This, btw, would give you a 3:07+ marathon time. Assuming you're under the age of 30 you don't need to run 7:00s to qualify for Boston, you need to run 7:18s. Although you're a month down the line in your training it appears, be careful of overtraining in the hopes to reach down to a 3:02ish marathon. You might even be capable of doing that time ... but I would think the training requirements to go from 8:15s to 7:00s in your marathon time are probably going to leave you injured at some point.

[Dave Holt]

Knowing Nate pretty well - coached him/and ran with him for his Senior year in HS and running with him presently, I would say that all HE needs to do to run a good marathon is get mileage in.  With a full year's base and his skill and guts, Nate is very capable of a 2:50 this year at St. George (with times that could come down significantly in upcoming marathons).  But that is just because I know him.  So training at those paces in some key workouts will actually be fine - but not for everybody.

[Jeff Linger]

Glad you clarified Dave. I guess maybe Sasha knew him as well. But I would guess that for the general person training the advice might lead to injury. As always, while we may have a community of support, it is an experiment of one. The general applications don't always fit the individual situations.

[Sasha Pachev]

30-40 second difference between 5 K and the marathon pace is normal, and can be achieved with proper training. Ryan Hall races the 5 K at 4:16 per mile, and the marathon at 4:49 per mile.  Haile has a little bit bigger gap - 4:04 in the 5 K, and 4:43 in the marathon. For me it is hard to tell because I do not often run 5 Ks and marathons on comparable courses, but if we take Draper Days 2004 and Top of Utah 2003 I get 5:01 in the 5 K and 5:38 in the marathon. For Paul, we could probably compare Draper Days 2007 with the Trials - 4:57 in the 5 K, and 5:26 in the marathon. 

To me true marathon pace is the pace that your leg power and aerobic conditioning would allow you to race the marathon at if the fuel were not an issue. For a low-mileage runner the fuel is a very serious issue. He gets a double-whammy - he is weak aerobically so he get uncomfortable breathing-wise at a slower pace, he is burning the fuel faster, and then on top of that he does not have much fuel to burn to begin with. Thus his actual marathon pace, that is his finish time divided by 26.22, is bogus for training purposes, it means exactly nothing. His 5 K would be a much better predictor of his optimal training paces.

However,  if running 10 miles at the true marathon pace calculated from the 5 K performance is very taxing or even impossible, then the runner should forget speed work and build his aerobic base at whatever pace seems comfortable, erring on the slow side.

[Nathan Bundy]

Geez! I just wanted to know where to log my miles on the blog! JK, but seriously, thanks for all the comments.

The advice I would definitley give to anyone wanted to get into running even if they have done it before is to find a group to run with. The great thing about runners (yes I am stereotyping) is that they don't seem to mind getting a group together to run. In fact, it seems they are actually trying to encourage it for some reason!

So find a group. It does not matter if you think you are not fast enough. Runners do not look down on people who are just getting started because they respect you for doing it. That group is bound to have a "Dave Holt" who is more than willing to give you advice and help you make your goals, and help keep you injury free if you talk to them about your miles and training...

[Dave Holt]

So your saying I am a loud mouth and should shut up!  (But that is not news to most of you!) Thanks Nate, real nice.   

[Nathan Bundy]

It was actually meant as more of a "wealth of knowledge" compliment without the worry of feeling like you asked a stupid question.

But maybe I will take it back!

Sasha, can you delete any posts complimenting Dave for me, or just put Clyde's name in place of all of Dave's...