Huh, I didn't know this....

[Bob]

I just read this, "As you train, just as your resting heart rate declines so to your maximum heart rate lowers as a result of an increased maximum stroke volume.  The trained heart can achieve higher maximal cardiac output, but at a lower heart rate".  So the heart becomes better at pumping more blood with fewer beats.  However, I always thought that your max rate would never change.  Is this not true and is it the reason why I can't get my heart rate to the level I could years ago while doing speedwork?  Using levels of perceived exertion, I've had to lower my heart rate ranges of the past couple of years by about 5-10 bpm.  I thought it had to do with aging or becoming weaker, not that my heart was becoming more efficient and its max rate was falliing.  Can someone confirm this?

[Jeff Linger]

Tell me where you read this? It certainly would suggest that heart rate training is not the way to go. This is proprosed (heart rate training not the way to go) by Fitzgerald in Brain Training For Runners. My Brother-In-Laws' trainer has him heart rate training and he's convinced that its the way to go. Looking at the paces he's running I keep telling him he's doing his aerobic based runs at too slow a pace. He says his heart rate zone shows he's where he should be. If your max heart rate changes as you increase training heart rate training would be a near waste of time unless the change in stroke number is equivalent to the change in stroke volume in relation to training zones.

[Bob]

"Lore of Running" is where read this bit.  What I've experienced in doing speedwork is I can work like crazy, but it's becoming harder and harder to get my heart rate into the zone that corresponds with my max heart rate measured years ago.  I'm not worried because I'm getting faster, but it was concerning that couldn't get into the zone.  It was disheartening as well (a negative mentally), so I've given up on zone training and now use perceived level exertion and pace as my guides mostly.  I still measure my rate once and while, but that's to see if over time its declining at a given pace or if I'm staying aerobic and not pushing too hard.  Even then, pacing takes care of most.

[Eric Day]

Bob, I have the Lore of running too. The way I understand it, is as you progress in fitness your heart demand decreases because your body is more efficient, so the avg heart rate will go down. But Jeff has a point, unless your have heart problems, your HR should not be your training guide.

[Sasha Pachev]

HR training is flawed in a number of ways. First, you need to know your true max or it is completely useless. 220-age is not necessarily your max, it is a very rough approximation. Even knowing your max is not enough because different runners have different cardio profiles as the effort increases.

Ultimately, it is wrong to assume that cardiovascular system is the primary driver of performance in distance running. It is not, it is only a supporting mechanism. It can become a limiting factor, and usually is in an untrained runner. However, once he is able to bring his cardiovascular health to an acceptable level,  muscular strength, and neural drive become more serious limiting factors, and you should focus on those more than the cardio. For a marathoner fuel storage and efficiency can be a limiting factor as well.

Thus, what is the point of targeting a certain heart rate if the heart is no longer the limit? Instead you should target a level of muscular and neural output. Most people do not have the luxury of being able to  measure that in their daily training directly. However, you can measure how fast you are running, which, given the same weight, very directly correlates to muscular output, and you can evaluate perceived exertion which will tell you something about your neural output.

Bottom line - with the technology available to the average consumer today you cannot do much better than time yourself over a known distance and pay attention to how you feel.

[Colby]

If your cardiovascular system is no longer the limiting factor, but muscular strength and neural drive are...how you can you affectively work on that part of your body? Obviously, with muscular strength you can do some type of low level weight training, but how does one improve neural drive?

[Sasha Pachev]

Colby:

You can do intervals, tempo runs, hill sprints, bounding, and a few other things. But it becomes more of a black magic with improvements being very small and difficult to achieve. However, the good news is that you will be running at least a 2:50 marathon by the time you get there.