Neural Fatigue

[adam]

Adam - I am having some fence problems at my house.  Any suggestions?

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3929956

[Sasha Pachev]

I've tried several tempos without looking at the watch until the end. Did it for about a month. The times varied from anywhere between 3 to 10 seconds a mile slower than what I ran with the same perceived effort while tracking splits. No difference in racing.

Tried mile intervals at 5:00 pace. No difference in racing distances over 5 K with those either introduced or removed.

Cross-country skiing a couple of times a week seemed to do something, though. Last winter I did very little speed or tempos, and was setting PRs and never experienced severe neural fatigue except during the last leg of Del Sol, which can be blamed on the lack of sleep. This is in spite of the fact that the runs during the winter were a lot more tedious, I was running more miles, I did not look forward to them, and often did not have a training partner. Now I look forward to my runs, the weather is nice, I rarely have a day when I have to run alone, and I actually look forward to getting out. But there is more neural fatigue, although not as much as 2 years ago.

[Dave Holt]

Nice Adam, Nice!

[adam]

So grab some cross country rollers and throw that in to your week. http://www.velotique.com/rski.htm or other places make them.

Not looking at the watch until the end is not the idea of the tempo work I was describing. That is simply just not looking at your watch until the end. I am talking about getting someone else to cover your timing and data collection so you can concentrate on running and responding to the splits they give you. I would expect you to run 3-10s slower just by not looking at your watch because you are not responding to anything and don't know how fast/slow you are going or where you are. Instead, in this kind of tempo you know where you are after each loop, how fast you were going by called out split time, and where you want to be at the end of the next lap to reach your goal. Then you run to reach that lap goal. It teaches you to focus on making the next loop faster than the previous. This is different than running 2.5 out and back and trying to reach .25-1 mile splits because it forces you not to think that way- you have to focus on just running the loop faster overall on each lap. It breaks up the 5 mile into 8x1 k or 10x .5 mile or whatever you want the loop to be (where it is short enough to make you forget the previous laps effort), and keeps you focused on moving faster each lap. Doing it this way should make it feel like you are running down a spiral--the loops get faster and seem shorter as you go on.

Lastly, I would not expect to see improved race results from much of any type of training lasting for only about a month (except maybe during a sharpening phase). That is why I was trying to say try this type of tempo 4x out of 6wks, turn back to your 5 mile rivertrail tempo (I would say for 2 wks), then you should repeat 2-3x. You have to give your brain time to learn the new language.

[Sasha Pachev]

My gut feeling (backed by over 10 years of  trying different things) tells me the issue is of such a nature that changing where or how I run will not make it better. Doing unwise things, such as too much speed work,  too much power work, or running too fast in base runs, can make it worse, but no running will produce an improvement that is even marginally better than what I get from just jogging 15 miles a day at 8:00 pace.

What we are dealing with, I think, is that a naturally weak neural drive due to very solid aerobic conditioning has become a limit. In order to run any faster I will need a breakthrough in the neural drive. My hope is that being as weak as it is, the cause of the weakness is some correctable fluke. Prior to the age of 11.5 I was in the bottom 15% among boys my age in every sport I've tried, and we've tried many during our bi-weekly PE classes. Soviet system was very well organized in this regard, they measured everything, and no measure of athletic talent would ever escape the system's attention. Then something happened. In a very short period ( couple of months) without hitting a growth spurt, I moved into the top 20% in just about every sport. This allowed my natural endurance to shine, and I realized I had a potential as distance runner. I maintained that 20% in every sport thing for a year until I started doing 4 speed workouts a week. About a year of that, and it was gone - I was back to the bottom in every sport except for distance running.

So - my thoughts. There was a naturally weak neural drive to start with. It got magically corrected (correlated with participating in a number of different sports). Then the correction was undone by early specialization and overtraining. So perhaps the hope is in finding the right combination sports in addition to running that would re-correct it.

[Paul Petersen]

I am currently reading the book "Paleo Diet for Athletes" by Cordain and Friel, and was surprised to see the topic of neural fatigue come up several times so far (I'm less than halfway through it). In a nutshell, not getting enough branched amino acids (BRAA) can cause neural fatigue. This is usually caused by not getting enough protein before, after, and during exercise. They recommend an optimum carb:protein ratio of 4:1 to 5:1 in your recovery drinks. Endurox is the only energy drink that I know of that has this particular assortment of nutrients, as most drinks have zero protein. They also recommend making your own homebrew energy drink. So perhaps try Endurox as a sports drink rather than Powerade. Or you can try adding whey or egg protein powder to your Powerade or making your own brew.

My current perception may be a little bit skewed, since I'm currently doing a high-protein, low-carb diet, but I think there is a chance that you are just not getting enough protein in your diet. I've seen the meals you eat, and although they are very healthy and "pure" (whole foods, etc.), I would describe it as very high-carb, low-protein. Yes, I'm sure buckwheat has some protein, but not nearly as much as lean meats such as fish and chicken. Consider dropping most of the grains and starches and having a diet that consists totally of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and lean meats. You already don't eat dairy, alcohol, caffeine, or processed food, so you are halfway there.

Think of it this way: grains and breads really don't have that many nutrients in them (that is why bread has to be fortified). And fortification is never as good as the real thing. Fruits and veggies are the real thing, are brimming with nutrients, and still can contain plenty of carbs for a marathoner if you eat the right ones. Supplement with a sports drink for workout recovery. You talk about this all the time: why eat something is "okay" when you can replace it with something better? Replace those empty bread and grain calories with the nutrient-laden fruit and veggie calories.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts based on what I'm currently reading (and doing). Much of this Paleodiet book aligns with what you already talk about all the time, which scares me a little, but I think it could help with your neural fatigue thing. Of course I wouldn't make any dietary changes until after St. George, but it's at least worth reading the book.

[Jon Allen]

There is one good drink that has the right protein ratio and is my current post-run beverage of choice:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/24/health/webmd/main1342839.shtml

[James Winzenz]

mmmm, chocolate milk . . .

Maybe I'll try that after St. George!  I'm not so sure that milk would be good during exercise, though . . .

[Jon Allen]

Yes, post-exercise.  I drank some last week at the TOU finish and then ran 6 more miles with some pretty nasty tasting burps.  Of course, I had 2 Fat Boys in the mix, as well.

[James Winzenz]

Of course, I had 2 Fat Boys in the mix, as well.

Sounds like that was more the culprit than chocolate milk
I would think that chocolate milk wouldn't give you nasty-tasting burps - at least, not unless you drank something lilke a half gallon, in which case you might be more inclined to start spewing chocolate curds . . . :O

[Josse]

Hammer company has a good recovery drink that is sweetend with Xylotal and not sugar like Endorux. 

[Paul Petersen]

mmmm, chocolate milk . . .

Maybe I'll try that after St. George!  I'm not so sure that milk would be good during exercise, though . . .

Chocolate milk definitely has its merits as a recovery drink, at least for those who are not lactose-intolerant. But Sasha does not consume dairy nor chocolate, so we must look elsewhere.

[Sasha Pachev]

Paul:

I have suspected it could have been diet-related as well. During the summer I had a hard time digesting any kind of meat, so I ate very very little. And that is when I started losing my edge and having severe neural fatigue days randomly. I have been eating turkey and fish since TOU almost every day + avocados (the other change from winter to summer, I lost my passion for avocados, and Sarah stopped buying them). There were no "cannot go faster than 5:40" neural fatigue problems during the winter.

[Paul Petersen]

Cool. If you have trouble with meat again, I would encourage you to try Endurox, or perhaps add a protein powder to your Powerade to supplement.

Looks like PureSport drink has protein as well. I had never heard of it, but then saw your banner ad and clicked on it. Enjoy your $0.10.

http://www.puresport.us/products

[Superfly]

Accelerade has a 4:1 ratio as well. It's a little cheaper than some of the others but a little harder on the stomach until you get use to it.