Training pace

[Sasha Pachev]

For a while I have been a believer that the optimal training pace for aerobic development is a certain fraction of your 5 K race pace which would be fairly similar for runners of various ability. However, lately I have been thinking about different bloggers and how they are progressing, and I am starting to think different.

Here is what I see. Runners that are comfortable at sub-10:00 pace and thus are able to run the bulk of their mileage that fast improve drastically when they increase the mileage. The ones that are not, and thus train at slower than 10:00 pace do not get the same improvements from the same mileage. This seems to be not related to the fraction of 5 K race pace very much. E.g somebody who races 5 K at 6:00 pace might train at 8:30 pace and see huge improvements. However, somebody who races 5 K at 9:00 pace does get anywhere near those benefits by training at 12:45, which would constitute the same fraction of speed.

As to the physiology of this, it is a mystery to me. I am just observing the empirical data and listening to my intuition.

So, if this is correct, then what should those who cannot run all of their mileage at sub-10:00 (or maybe sub-11:00) do to get better? I think it is similar to how you train somebody who is learning to run continuously - in that situation you do not just walk fast the entire way, you run a minute, walk a minute. If you just walk you will never transition to running. So maybe something like this - run sub-10:00 pace for a minute or two, then back off to 13:00 until you feel like sub-10:00 again, repeat. Try to get as much mileage at sub-10:00 as possible in a run until you can go all the way.

[Maurine Lee]

Ok - this time I'll seriously try it 2 days a week and see if it helps.

[Neil Price]

I know its anecdotal, but I've experienced more incremental improvement in my speed this year by following your constant refrain for those averaging less than 60 mpw to forego speedwork and increase mileage.  I still do an occasional tempo run but 90+% of my miles are slow,easy miles now.  Its seems counterintuitive but I've seen speed gains by consciously avoiding speedwork.     

[Bob]

I've had the same experience.  I think less speedwork (max 5% of weekly total) and more volume at an easy conversational pace has made me faster overall.

I agree that the use of walking breaks is the way to go.  Have to manage time frames and expectations though.  For example, it might take several years before the person can run a 5K or 10K without use of the breaks.  That's ok since the foundation takes time.  I also think that beginners could even benefit from the use of multiple workouts during the day.  Most think "1 and done" in terms of exercise.  Why not 30 min 3 times a day?   The person might be able to spend more time at running pace using the multiple approach.

[Sasha Pachev]

Neil, Bob - both of you could go sub-10:00 to begin with or at least sub-11:00 for most of your runs, right?

[Eric Day]

I've been do all my runs on a sub-10 pace. Going for the mileage, every day. Speed shall come, some day I hope

I think that going above 10, you just don't build enough cardio workout to really improve in speed in the future. Does this sound right?

[Neil Price]

Neil, Bob - both of you could go sub-10:00 to begin with or at least sub-11:00 for most of your runs, right?

yep.

[Bob]

Yes, I could always go below 10:00 pace even at my heaviest weight, but I didn't run every day or go beyond 5 miles.

[Sasha Pachev]

OK, so then according to my theory you would have significantly benefited from increasing the mileage without worrying about how fast you were going. Which you did. The theory says  if sub-10:00 happens naturally, then increase the mileage, you will see aerobic development even if your 5 K race pace is a whole lot faster. If it does not, focus on increasing the mileage at sub-10:00 pace even if you cannot currently run a 5 K at 10:00 pace. Aerobic development does not happen as well when the pace is slower than 10:00 almost regardless of  current ability. One exception could be if you are pregnant or overweight, in this case running 12:00 could be equal to 10:00 in terms of muscular effort.

There is nothing magic about 10:00, of course, it is just a rough estimate. It could very well be 11:00, maybe even 11:30. But not 12:00. It may vary from individual to individual, but my gut feeling it does not vary a whole lot,  and any variation definitely does not closely follow the race performance.

[Scott Hughes]

Since I am new to running, just hit my one year mark of running/training for marathons. When I first started I thought that to run a race your were supposed to RUN the distance..no walking. This frustrated me because I couldn't do it. After a bit of time I could string some miles together and feel pretty good about them. Shortly before the St. George marathon I read something about taking some scheduled walk breaks, walk through the aid stations etc. I found two things. It was easier for me to be lazy when running and take walk breaks too often. I also did find that my speed went up. My runs now consist of this: TRAINING, When I am running a training run I try to get warmed up for 1-2 miles then work on getting some distance, an additional 2-3 miles with a good controlled pace. After that I run/walk, taking a walk break around 1/3 to 1/2 miles apart for 20 seconds+-. RACING, When I am in a race I try to run to each aid station, make sure I get the water/Gatorade in, then off I go to the next. I don't necessarily make that all the way on a full marathon but try to walk as little as possible (if the race is not fun it is not worth doing theory).
My goal now that I have been able to get the mileage in is to start working on stretching out the miles without a break to help establish better fitness levels. I feel that by doing this I will begin to knock my race times down each time because the base is good, the body is getting used to the running process, mechanics are getting better, and now the fitness level should increase with longer runs without as many breaks.
Another thing that I have found recently is biking. I am trying to top of my runs short or long with a good bike ride. My recovery has been incredible with that added element. Going with an easy to moderate ride the legs shake out and it builds other muscles in the legs and core. I am able to work on the breathing/ fitness as well with periods of time riding at a fast speed to get the heart pumping.
Just my two bits! By the way I am not a young buck. Moving to 50 years old next month and feeling great because of the running I have be doing this past year!

[ChromeDome Steve]

This is a very interesting topic, thanks for starting it.

Until recently I didn't think about "pace" at all in terms of my running. In the past I would see people looking at watches and talking about pace, and I wanted nothing to do with it. My idea of pacing was just to run your fastest (or until it hurt too much or whatever) and then look at your final time. :-)

But now I am "enlightened" thanks to this blog and other books, plus I have a garmin, which helps a lot.

I think I agree that in my limited experience there is something to the 12-minute area.  I didn't used to keep track of my paces, but now using the garmin I see that 12-minutes is the pace I ran when I was really out-of-shape years ago, and is what I always called my "old man pace" ... which I would run when I was feeling sore/tired or un-enthusiastic about running that day (what I might now call a "recovery" run with my new terminology).

Running around 12:00-ish is almost like a fast walk-jog and it doesn't tax my lungs at all. However if I run uphill for awhile at 10:00 or 9:30 I start panting.

Maybe it is something about general human physiology that if you are over a certain height you can walk/jog at a certain rate without engaging a certain aerobic threshold (in other words to your body it is just a shuffle/jog and not a "run")?

[Marion McClellan]

This is a GREAT topic that applies to me exactly.  The only problem is that it needs to be remembered, that for very new runners, they may very well need to run/jog/12mm or slower- whatever you want to call it- for a bit of time until they can run maybe 3-5 miles a day for a while uninjured, then start implementing a "speed" increase.  Once the pace is brought down to the "10mm" level or less, then start adding in the greater mileage at a reasonable rate.
I am working on this very experiment and hope to see some GREAT results in the next six months.  Due to some past experience with injuries,  I am following a slightly different approach.  My comfy pace is in the 12's.  I ran the Utah Valley Marathon at an average of 12:00 mm.  For my experiment I am running all of my runs at a 11:30 - 12mm pace for the next 3-4 weeks.  Keeping my mileage in the 30's, where I know I am pretty injury free.  If all goes well, the following 3 to 4 weeks will be in the 11-11:30's.  After the second cycle of increases (in about 8 weeks) I will add tempo runs in once a week and increase my pace again.  In about 3 months, if all is going well, I'll reevaluate and see if it is time to increase miles or just keep speeding up the pace, or both.  I am really going to go by feel with this.  If I feel injury creeping in, I'll pull back a bit on the speed for a while.
I don't really mind if this takes a bit of time.  I am not in a big hurry.  My #1 goal is to be able to run, injury free, everyday (6 days .  My secondary goal is to be FASTER!!!   ( I really want to be faster
I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[Jose Jimenez]

So, right now my 5K pace is about 7:15.  I typically will run about 30-35 miles a week with about 5 of those miles (approx. 15%) as interval training speedwork and about 20% as tempo runs.  I do my long runs at an 8:30 pace.  Would I benefit the same if I did my long runs at a 9:00 pace?  Would I benefit the same if I did my long runs at 9:00 pace and ran 5 more easy (9:00 pace) miles a week?  Am I doing too much speedwork? 

Doing those long runs at a slower pace sure would make them more enjoyable...

[Bonnie]

I don't know what my pace is, except for speed work - I run by time (e.g., 60 mins/80mins). Except for workouts I run whatever I feel -- sometimes it is pretty slow (3 mins more than marathon pace) other days it ends up being a little faster (less than a minute slower than marathon pace).  When you run by time there is no reason to run faster than you feel like running - and it keeps you from worrying too much about mileage.  Depending on what distance you are training for (faster races might require a higher percentage of training at a faster pace) - many believe you shouldn't run more than 10%-20% of your training at anything more than an easy aerobic pace (1-2 mins slower than marathon pace).   Jack Daniels is a proponent of this, as was Lydiard.  The only "well-known" coach who steps outside of this approach a bit is Hudson.    Mixing up paces -- and using the full range of paces is helpful, and keeps you strong.  Running either too hard or too easy every single day can get you injured or bored - so finding the balance that works for you is the key to improving.  Running by feel - and not miles - works best for me.

Depending on where I am in my training  and what distance my next key race is, I do up to 3 "speed work" sessions a week.  These paces vary a lot ... e.g., if I do 3 sessions/week I will do 1 pretty hard (5K pace or faster) and two easier (somewhere between 1/2 marathon and marathon pace).  If I do 2 workouts/week, 1will be at 5K pace or faster (like a fartlek workout) and then one more targeted (10K-1/2 marathon - longer intervals at the track).

[Eric Day]

One thing I have noticed about my training pace is that as time goes by, my fitness gets better but most importantly, my heart rate has gone down. This is very important to me since I'm no longer a young person (only in heart). My training pace has increased a little bit -about a 20%- but my average heart rate has gone down about 30%.
Once one in a comfortable pace, he should push a little, unless you are doing an easy run, this way, your body does not   get accustomed to a pace and can do more & produce better results.
Just ideas from the top of my head.