Endorsement Rules Discussion

[Jon Allen]

Sasha- As I understand it, Red Dragon isn't saying the raffle helps him improve.  He is saying that his wife enjoys the raffle after the race, so that is her incentive to participate (so, in some ways, the raffle may actually help her improve by motivating her to participate in races). 

And he isn't speaking of your specific race by complaining about the $110 entry fee.  He is speaking hypothetically, using it to show he doesn't want his entry fees to skyrocket just to pay for more cash prizes for a few people.  If wanted to support elites, he would run Boston or some other expensive marathon with big prizes.  But he doesn't want his local race to raise fees just to pay a few elite runners.

[Sasha Pachev]

I suppose I can understand the point about the wife. Have to do what it takes to make the boss happy. If the boss is not happy, you cannot train as much, so you will not improve.

As far as prize money paid from entry fees. On its own the idea does not hold a whole lot of water. If you really cared to, you could find a way to fund the prizes without the runners feeling it. Hyrum Oaks, the race director of the Utah Valley Marathon has the lowest marathon entry fee, yet he was able to fund very generous cash prizes. I am funding a modest prize purse without collecting entry fees altogether. It can be done if desired. There is something else behind this argument, and I have been trying to figure out what it is.

One thing is quite obvious, though. People want a party bad enough to want to pay party expenses. However, when it comes to racing, it appears to me deep down most runners do not really want to race. They might want public recognition for racing, but they do not enjoy placing lower in a better company with a higher effort and a better time. With this mindset, when the race is more competitive, this is actually a minus. Thus the complaints about cash prizes coming from entry fees.

This has a consequence of not many races having prize purses, and as a result not a whole lot of support for competitive running. Why do Kenyans leave us in the dust? A Kenyan boy is doomed to poverty if he does not get serious about running. An American boy is doomed to poverty if he does.

[Dallen]

A Kenyan boy is doomed to poverty if he does not get serious about running. An American boy is doomed to poverty if he does.

This is completly off subject, but I've got to comment. The above statement is technically correct, but at the same time I think that we have a general misunderstanding about Kenyan runners. Yes, they do win all of the big races and prize money, but how many of them actually manage to make a good living off of their winnings? A few hundred? How many diream big and never make it? Probably hundreds of thousands. Maybe their time and effort would have been better placed in school and career preparation.

It's kinda like out situation with football and basketball here in the the US. At almost any given moment I can look out my window and see a bunch of inner city kids playing basketball. Many are just having fun, but many also have dreams of playing in college of hopefully pro. Only a small percentage will be able to use a college scholorship as their ticket out of poverty, even less will go pro. The rest will be working at McDonalds because they were shooting hoops when they sould have been doing their homework. I know I'm overgeneralizing, but the concept is sound. 99.999% of us don't have what it takes to be elite. The rest of us should be in it for other reasons and have a better plan for making money.

[Sasha Pachev]

Dallen:

To be a professional runner for an American planning to support a family the standard is around 2:12. About 5-7 people out of 300 million right now. If you are slower than that you do not have what it takes. Think about what that means for a guy that is number 50 or so in the nation who is not that good at anything else compared to running. I am not quite there to tell you from personal experience, but I have an idea. I am good at other things, and I might be pushing it to rank in the top 200, but even from that perspective it still hurts to know that nobody really cares. If you had never felt THE FEELING, you would not care either, you would see 5:00 miles as 12mph which can be easily beaten in a car, so you would not care that you or somebody else could string several of those together. But once you've felt THE FEELING, you realize that God gave you a gift, that it is something not to be wasted, you want to develop it, you want to share it with others, you want to help them experience THE FEELING. The greater the gift and the more you've felt it, the more it hurts when you realize hardly anybody cares.

[Jon Allen]

Interesting discussion.

might want public recognition for racing, but they do not enjoy placing lower in a better company with a higher effort and a better time.

I think this is human nature for most people, especially non-elites.  If you decided to enter a weightlifting competition, Sasha, I would guess you would prefer a local competition with weaker competitors, versus competing in the World's Strongest Man contest.  Even though you know you can't win, it is less embarrasing when you are closer in strength to your competition.  It may be neat to watch the WSM, but getting beat by them would not be fun.

Same thing with running- it is fun to place in the top 10 of a local 5k, even though you would get creamed at a more competitive race.  Even you think this way, Sasha- you would rather run Des News, TOU, and St. Jude where you have a good chance to win money, rather than run Boston or London marathon where the prize money is much greater but more competitive.  It's maximizing profit potential.  But most runners won't win a race, so don't care how competitive or how much money there is.

[Sasha Pachev]

I would happily race a competitive half where I would finish in 250th place or below if the cost of travel was manageable. But such halves do not exist, primarily because I am reluctant to spend money on travel. A marathon is a little different because I can put only so many of them into my legs, they pay much better than halves, they still pay pennies for the time I put into running, but a penny saved is a penny earned, so then a penny earned is definitely a penny earned, and I have a wife and six kids to feed. Plus I like to feel what it's like to have to depend on your legs for income. It is a humbling experience, and it makes you treat your body with more respect. Perhaps that is why I am carrying this thread. There is a value to road prize money that most people do not understand. It is very fine, it is easy to miss, but it is there, and it is powerful, even if it is just petty cash.

[Jon Allen]

I am reluctant to spend money on travel

Yup, I understand that.  Same reason I don't go to SLC for a 5k and complain about going to Park City or St. George.  I also know that running Boston as part of a vacation a while ago was a great, memorable experience- very fun.  I'm sure I will travel to a race every now and again (including the 100 miler I am planning in TX next winter), but it will be the exception more than the rule.

Sasha, it's too bad you are self employed.  If you were working for a company where you had to travel sometimes, you could maybe work some races into your trips.  Then you aren't spending your own money but find some very competitive races.

[Sasha Pachev]

It does not work too well. When you are on a business trip you do what the client expects you to do. One time I went to Texas on a business trip and thought, hey, I am at a low elevation, I am going to try a tempo run. I brought my wheel with me and wheeled out a course. I struggled hitting 5:50 pace for 3 miles due to the fatigue from the meetings, bad sleep, and other travel-related stress. I came back home and ran 5:15 pace in a 3 mile tempo on a slight downhill, followed by 5:25 pace in a 5 K on a hilly loop course.

[Davy Crockett]

I respect the right of this blog to endorse races according to their criteria.  As a race director, my reaction
is that this smells of elitism.  Perhaps this is just me.  What rubs me the wrong way are requirements to give
out prize money, free entry to "elites," restrictions raffles to make sure more of the money goes to elites.
That should be up to the race. It sounds like elites want their pockets filled with money, that they have
earned the respect and better be respected.

Sorry to be critical, but that is what it sounds to me.  I believe one of the dangers of this sport is
elitism.   Now, I know that so many of the "elites" give a ton back to the sport and help so many others.  And I
know "elites" are stuggling to make ends meet.  But there are other ways to do this instead of trying to
impose races to be "elitist."   

A free race, for the love of the sport, doesn't meet this criteria and would not be endorsed.  Something is wrong here.

[Jon Allen]

Davy- based on the discussion on this board, it seems many people on the forum do not necessarily agree with Sasha's requirements for free elite entry, prize money, and raffle restrictions.  Myself included.  That being said, they are Sasha's rules, so he can do what he wants, though understanding that Sasha's FRB rules represent his unilateral decision, and not the collective decision of blog members. 

If I were a race director, I would feel like you do.  I think some of Sasha's rules are due to his background- he is a runner who tries to maximize his race earnings and not pay entry fees.  If he were a lifetime mid or back-of-the-pack runner, I imagine he would have a different perspective.

That's yet another reason I love trail races- non-elitist, laid back, done only for the love of running.  And times or places are definitely secondary to participation and finishing.

[Sasha Pachev]

Jon:

My bottom line would be a whole lot better if I never raced. If I cut my mileage to 40 a week I would still get health benefits, and used the extra time to make money. I do already have a way to get a comp in races where I have a shot at prize money (marathons), and making the Dog Days 5 K more competitive does not do me personally much good as I cannot win it as it is. If enough race directors begin to apply those rules, the guys that are beating me in 5 Ks will start to properly train for the marathon, and then I will never see any prize money whatsoever. I have given extensive help to talented local runners knowing very well that it will eventually result in me not being able to beat them over any distance. I am funding a race with prize money out of my own pocket. All the work I put into the blog results in local races being more competitive, thus less chance for me to win them.   So, no, I am not setting up anything for myself, I find it strange that you would suggest so.

My concern is for a guy that comes out of college and he has to decide if he is going to eat or if he is going to run competitively. I want to give him a reason to run competitively. A few comp entries and $100 here and there will not cut it, he would still have to find some other source of income, but this is at least a start. Feeling that the community cares about how fast he runs might make him and his family more willing to deal with the sacrifices it requires to fulfill his potential.

I am also concerned about the fact that once somebody qualified for Boston, there is nothing else for him to qualify for except maybe the vague national elite status of sub-2:30 and after that the trials. Which for most is not attainable, at least in a visible time span. There is no reason for a 3:00 guy to try to run under 2:40. 3:00 is a fast jogger. 2:40 is still a just fast jogger. Those who have run under 2:40 know very well that a jogger attitude does not get you there unless you have the talent for 2:15, and yet we do not recognize all that work, by all standards you are still considered a fast jogger. I feel there should be a tangible reason for a 3:00 guy to keep on striving for a better time, and I want to do what I can to help create it. Local elite status can serve that purpose.

[Jon Allen]

Sasha- I wasn't trying to say that you are setting yourself specifically up for anything (i.e. by making these rules, you would be more likely to win money), just that you have more focus on comps and prizes at races than many runners because you are fast enough to generally get them and have visibility into that side of racing.  And I think your races with no entry and out-of-pocket prizes are very, very admirable.  I apologize if I offended you with my comments.

I was just stating that your FRB sponsorship on races which requires comps and prizes, and less emphasis on raffles, is due to your beliefs about supporting/encouraging fast runners, on top of supporting running in general.  Other races emphasize other things (i.e. Olympic trials= Olympic qual, Race for Cure = charity, Smithfield Health Days 5k = encouraging general fitness).  We need all types and emphasis.  I just think some RD's (like Davy) aren't big fans of mandatory prizes, restricted raffle, etc.  I'm just happy if a race is an accurate length, with sufficient course markings, road closures (if necessary), and port-o-potties.  Oh yeah, and some good food at the finish.  Preferably lots and lots of good food...

[Michelle Lowry]

Jon if I remember right, you were the one who ate the peanut butter & jelly sandwiches after the Ogden marathon last year, the ones they stamp into a circle?  If that's your definition of good food, I think I'll pass.

[Jon Allen]

Michelle, I'll eat anything after a race- no one has ever called me picky.  And don't rip PB&J- it's good stuff!  Those sandwiches were pretty tasty.

[Sasha Pachev]

Jon:

Here is what I find odd. A lot of people run. A lot of people buy expensive toys to measure how fast they run. A lot of people read advice on how to get faster. A lot of people run races that are timed using expensive sophisticated technology. Many runners are upset if they do not get their chip time. Obviously how fast somebody runs does matter, you cannot say people are out there just to jog, eat the food, and have fun. Yet at the same time there is a phenomenon that I call "mid-pack mindset".

Some symptoms of the disease:

* Your average race director finds it offensive to be expected to offer a few elite comps, some pocket change for prize money, and award the runners according to merit rather than random luck.

* Somebody who is younger than 40 sees a local elite at a race, finds out he is in the same age division, and says "darn it". Or, he is very excited about next year because that local elite will get a year older and move out of his age division. He does not mind being beat by an older guy as long as he gets his age division trophy. No concern about the meaning or value of that trophy.

* You catch up to somebody during an easy run going maybe 20 seconds per mile faster than him and invite him to join you. He has seen you run fast before. He says, no you are too fast for me and gives up without trying your pace at all.

* Most runners will have no idea who won the race and with what time.

* You finish a race and are jogging back to find somebody to pace during your cool-down. A few runners will comment (trying to act like it is in jest) that it is not fair that you finished so far ahead of them.

Note that I am talking about mid-pack mindset vs mid-pack pace. Somebody with his very best training will still be running only mid-pack pace. And by definition if you have 2000 people racing regardless how fast somebody will finish in 1000th place, and somebody will even be last. Those people may be cursed with a mid-pack pace but they do not have to have a mid-pack mindset. That is one reason, if not the main reason, I put all the time and effort into the blog. I want people to truly apply themselves and reach for the stars regardless of their level of ability. I believe, however, that you cannot truly reach for the stars yourself if you feel indifferent or even jealous towards excellence in others, when you happily pay $5 for ice cream, but grumble about $1 towards prize money.