Endorsement Rules Discussion

[adam]

I understand where you're coming from though...

For the majority of the people that routinely spend $30 a day on fast food or restaurants, $30 for a race is not that much.

[Seth Wold]

One of the highlights of Nestle Art City days is it's affordability.  They also have huge raffle at the end.  It promotes running and enjoying racing.  But the biggest prizes go in the raffle.  If not the top elite runners would take home freezers, bikes or valuable camping equipment every time.  Would that be right for the other runners in the race who pay their entrance fee and give just as much effort in the race?  I don't think so.  Just because I am a relatively fast runner doesn't make me feel entitled to receive a better prize than anyone else at every race I go to.  If the fast running blog is here to help each runner achieve their potential, then why would it take away the chance for a not so fast blogger who will most likely never win the big prizes off placing overall in a race?  The raffle prizes are there for everyone.  The elite athletes can pick and choose which races they do to maximize their winnings, but don't ask the race directors to take away the average runner's chance of winning a decent prize in the drawing just so the faster runners can always take a prize home. 

[Sasha Pachev]

Seth - see the rules again. If a race wants to have something like have runners submit an inspirational story and reward them with a prize for overcoming a challenge, that is OK. Or if they pull out a donated prize and ask the runners to nominate somebody that did something extraordinary, not necessarily in the area of running, that is OK too.  That rewards work. If you just throw out prizes, that rewards chance. When those prizes exceed the prizes given out for a combination of work and talent, it communicates the idea that random luck is more important than work and talent. Thus the race has become a disguised lottery. Such "races" will not be promoted on the Fast Running Blog.

[Dallen]

Seth makes a good point. The Springville race is an excellent example. It is one of my favorite races, even though the winners get nothing more than cheap trophies while random slow people get nice raffle prizes. However, the race also brings out a huge percentage of the local community most of whom will not run any other races until the next year. Kids get exposed to the sport and adults get a reason to exercise and do something with their families. The kid who wins a ladder in the raffle does not see it a a lucky lottery win, but sees it a a cool prize he won for doing his best in a race. Maybe a new lifetime runner was made. This probably does more for the runnig community than giving the ladder to the same semi-fast winner year after year.

[Sasha Pachev]

I would argue that the lucky kid will just come next year untrained in hopes of getting something in the raffle. If he sees that his trained friend got a prize for running fast it will be more likely that he will actually train.

[Dallen]

Or maybe the kid realizes that he will never be fast enough to win a prize and decides to just settle for playing video games.

Seriously though, the race does have a good model. It manages to bring out 1500 people by offering a t-shirt, a fun time and a raffle entry for $8. The cheap entry fee surely helps, but if the prizes went to the best runners instead of a raffle, only a few hundred people would be showing up.

[Dallen]

Of course after thinking about it, they could charge $9 instead of $8 and they would have $1500 for prize money. All 20 of the fast local guys and gals would show up and it would be a nice competitive race. They would still need the raffle or else the slow people wouldn't come and there wouldn't be any source for the prize money.

[Dallen]

More deep thinking. What if they could get away with charging $15. Still a cheap race, but now they have $10,000 in prize money. A van full of second tier Kenyans drives up from New Mexico and easily brings home all of the money. Is the community benefiting now? Is this really that much different than giving a smaller check to the same handful of local guys who win all the local races?

[James Moore]

Seth is quite right that more talented runners don't deserve to get everything while others get nothing. Sasha is right that giving prizes out randomly cheapens the whole experience somehow. Maybe we should come up with some convoluted way to evaluate the work that someone has put in. Like you could have a prize for the person who improved the most from the previous year. Or, if you have a small race series, the last race could be handicapped so the people who were slowest in the prior races start first (there is a series in Seattle that does this but I've never run in the final race, obviously you could only do this in a small race).

I think is a mistake to get people to focus too much on extrinsic benefits however. It is well known that people will enjoy activities less when extrinsic motivation is used. People should learn to enjoy the feeling that they accomplished something instead of the fact that they got a prize. That's why age groups are so important. There has to be something to motivate people between winning and merely finishing. Another seattle race, "Beat the Bridge", comes to mind. You have to complete the race before the bridge goes up.

[Jon Allen]

I like raffles.  I think most people do.  A whole table of prizes, and everyone has an equal chance of winning.  It's exciting.  Whether it is at a race or a community function or a company picnic, they are fun.  At a race, having a prize for "inspirational story" or "most improved" or to "handicap" everyone sounds good, but I can't see anyone actually doing it- too much work.  I like winning money as much as anyone, but I really don't mind when I don't get prize money but there is a big public raffle.  Just like I could never win a prize at a basketball tournament, the truth is most runners could never take top 3 at a race.  So I think having a raffle where everyone has a chance is great.

I just compare 2 races- the TOU 1/2 has a big raffle after the awards ceremony.  Hundreds of people attend, enjoying the post-race festivities with their families.  Striders 1/2 and 30k has awards, but no raffle.  There are very few people at those ceremonies- pretty much just the people who win the awards.  So which is better for the sport?

[steve ashbaker]

Both sides have their points in this issue however I think that one should not worry about who gets what because of this or that.  Maybe I'm a bit sensitive these days but lately it does not seem as if their is any true altruistic spirit on this blog.   It is disconcerting to see so many so egos in constant competition to either put their own interests to the front or the building and puffing up of their own  reputations.    Some of you may push back at me for saying this, but that's ok I kind of expect it to happen.    Just not feeling a true Christlike spirit amongst this blog anymore that is all.

Maybe it's time to find another group or perhaps even another hobby for that matter.
  

[allie]

Both sides have their points in this issue however I think that one should not worry about who gets what because of this or that.  Maybe I'm a bit sensitive these days but lately it does not seem as if their is any true altruistic spirit on this blog.  
  

steve: i believe you were referring to my comment. i removed it because i feel terrible that i came across in this way. i apologize. it was not intended to be offensive and was certainly not ego-based.

[Dallen]

Maybe I missed the real juicy stuff, but I don't see this as as fighting. We're just having a friendly discussion about how best to improve our sport.

[MarkP_]

A local race is an event my entire family can enjoy.  My wife runs the race to win a raffle prize.  My kid runs the race to win a participation medal.  I run for myself...not to win, but to constantly improve.  If you want to race for money then be a professional and run the large payday marathons or compete in the Olympics.  I will watch you and cheer you on, but don't turn my local race into $110 entry fee race for pros. 

I will not look for races on this board.

[Sasha Pachev]

Red Dragon - I am not following your argument. I missed how the raffle helps you improve, and I also missed how $50 cash prize for the win raises the entry fee to $110. I am able to offer that with the entry fee of $0.