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 on: August 30, 2019, 12:19:46 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin
Hey Donald,

I know itīs a very individual thing. My intention was to get some information from other runners about the depth and speed of breathing and how it affects running. As you see, we use very different approaches when it comes to breathing.

If we donīt "see" each other before sunday: Good luck for your marathon! You definitly deserve to run your sub3!


 on: August 12, 2019, 10:37:19 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Donald Davis
I just decided to look at the forum after a year and saw this. I really like the 3 in - 2 out rhythm for most training. When I start to work harder, like lactate threshold and above, I switch to 2-2. I will sometimes do 2-2 in marathon pace training as well. Try both during a run and do whichever is most comfortable for you. At least, that's what I do.

 on: September 17, 2018, 02:11:27 pm 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin
I've always controlled my training intensities by breathing rhythms. According to german coach Herbert Steffny, my training intensities/ breating rhythms correlate like follows:

4-4 rhythm = jogging, easy runs, moderate runs, even marathon pace runs

3-3 rhythm = shorter tempo runs (threshold-pace), half-marathon races, first third of a 10k-race

2-2 rhythm = interval runs, 5-10k races

Today I once again read Daniels' Running Forumula. About breathing rhythms, he says: "When you're not breathing particularly hard, you might use slower breathing rhythms, such as a 3-3 rhythm, which is often used during easy runs but which becomes stressful at threshold-pace or faster. A 4-4 rhythm can also be used but isn't recommended because the depth of breathing consumes energy and the slowness of this rate often does a poor job of clearing CO2 fast enough from the lungs."

This made me think if I'm doing something wrong. Don't get me wrong: I am able to run the right paces for each intensity. But is it possible to run more effective by just using a faster breathing rhythm? During the last few marathon-pace runs for example, I was able to run that pace by using 4-4 rhythms, but I was more comfortable using 3-3. In the past, I just used 4-4 because I didn't want to turn that run into a threshold-run.

I would also like to know how you are using breathing rhythms for different intensities.


 on: July 22, 2018, 04:16:53 pm 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin
thanks for you answer!

It's a few weeks later and things changed: I had an overstressed knee which I am recovering from still. So I'm even happy with consistent running.

I heard about BW and will try to carefully bring them into my training. But they won't be as hard as suggested. I will need more patience.


 on: July 18, 2018, 08:23:16 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Jon Allen
I'm guessing you were wiped out a bit- adding 30 min at once to your long run is a big jump. I'd recommend 1-2 mile increases only.

I can't predict if you can break 3 hour marathon with your training, but if 8 hr training time per week is all you have, then you'll get the best result your able, so you can just be satisfied with that.

One thing that may help is adding some Big Workouts once you have your base. Search BW at the top of this page and you'll see lots of examples. Big Workouts really helped a lot of FRB-ers improve their marathon times.

 on: May 20, 2018, 09:47:49 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin
Hello everyone,

being a member of this great community since the beginning of the year I took good advice and started running consistently (except a 3 week break because of influenza in March). I structure my training by time rather than by miles. So the last few weeks I ran 4 x 60 min., 2 x 90 min (~45 miles), everything felt great. Last week I added 30min. to my long run so that my training week is now: 60/60/90/rest/60/60/120.

Today was the 2nd long run >2 hours and like last week, Iīm feeling wiped out after. My legs are sore, Iīm tired with some kind of headache. Since I felt the same last week, this time I even paid more attention: I slept enough (7-8 hrs every night), I was well hydrated (took water before and during the run), the course was the same I am training daily (hilly, but managable), pace is even slower than in my easy runs during the week.

Is there such a big difference between 90 and 120 min? Short info: a few years ago I ran 4 marathons and did a lot of long runs. Only difference is that I didnīt run as many miles as I am doing now.

So I donīt know what to do about it: cutting back to what worked or going through this stadium?

Also I think I am at a peak regarding to the weekly training time (7.5 to 8 hours) which builds a good balance between family, training and work. If the question to the previous is to go though: is it possible to run sub 3 next year if I train consistently in that time range? My easy running pace is very slow, so I think what is 50 miles right now can get to 60 while my body is adapting training. So should I just be patient or do I have to run more?

All the best from Germany,


 on: April 09, 2018, 02:35:00 pm 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin

to blame myself I read your answer only now. Sorry!

About long runs: I donīt think there is a magic number preparing for a marathon. Itīs 20 miles in America and 35 km (~22 miles) in Europe. I like the idea to set time marks like 2 hours for regular long runs and 2,5 hours every other week to prepare for a marathon. I made the experience that everything longer than that made me very tired. But as you said, it could also be because of low mileage.

Iīm a fan of doubles also. At the moment Iīm at 5 x 60ī and 1 x 90ī per week. Over the summer, I decided to do a real base-building phase before adding any speed. Youīre absolutly right about that! I will try to add 2-3 doubles, then I want to build my long run to 2 hours. Once I made it to about 8 hours of running per week, I should be close to 100 km (~60 miles) per week and ready to prepare with more tempo runs for a first marathon.

 on: February 26, 2018, 08:19:15 pm 
Started by Martin - Last post by Jon Allen
Long runs can indeed be overrated, but only somewhat. If you're training for a marathon, I would not want to start the race without a number of 18-20 mile runs completed. But overall, I think too many people try marathons without enough base mileage. Doing a 20 miler when you only run 30-40 miles a week is problematic. If you run 60-70 per week, then it's easier. I do agree that if long runs impact your ability to run more than 2 days later, you may not have been ready for that distance yet.

Once you build up to 60 minutes, 5 days per week plus some longer run, you can start adding other stuff. I'm a fan of 2 runs per day, a few days a week. Or adding in a little speedwork (not too much, build up slowly). Or a combo. Whatever you think works best for you- you'll have adequate base to try them. It's hard to get over 60 miles per week with only single runs for many people. But whatever changes you make, go slowly to avoid injury.

Any other questions?

 on: February 02, 2018, 11:46:20 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Martin
Thank you, Jon!

Itīs great how many fast runners are logged in here! Amazing your running accomplishments, you can be very proud!

In February, I planned exactly what you describe as general rule of thumb. What Iīm not sure about is the length of my long runs, since I injured doing long marathonpace-runs (15, 20, 25k each 3 weeks apart) for my last marathon. I didnīt have enough mileage weekly to do that... Here I got some good advice from jtshad I am very thankful for! He suggested a linear buildup for my long runs (like 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 miles or so). These days I read a lot about George Malley (malmo) who says:
What my point about the long runs is that they are way overrated, are disproportionately done with respect to the overall mileage and training goals, and should not be done at the expense of the other aspects of your training.
He even says that 25% of weekly mileage is too much...I think running long runs of 20 miles definitly have a mental value, but Iīm not sure if just doing more mileage and spread it over a whole week would be a better option (to stay healthy). Another idea of mine is to just do 1 or 2 very easy 20 milers just to build confidence and feeling for the distance. Others long runs would be in the 10-13 miles range. Any suggestions?

Second question about your rule of thumb: where do you go from there? Skip rest day and doing a short easy run? Doubles or longer single runs? A combination of both?

Much appreciate any advice,

 on: January 29, 2018, 11:54:48 am 
Started by Martin - Last post by Jon Allen
Welcome, Martin. Your patient approach sounds like a good plan. Our general rule of thumb is to build up to 60 minutes a day, 5 days a week, plus a longer day, before adding speedwork. Consistency day after day and week after week, while being cautious for injuries, will yield the best results. Good luck!

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