Elite Coach Proposes Cross-Training Over Miles?

[Jeff Linger]

Heh. Ok, I admit, that title was just to grab your attention. I haven't actually come across such a coach. But I'm wondering if any of you have. My brother-in-law and I are adamantly camped in the two opposing views on this. He is a tri-athelete who is trying to convince me that there are 3 primary work-outs each week -- Tempo, Interval, Long Run -- and that the rest of the miles are junk miles that can be replaced by non-running cardio workouts that don't put as much pounding on your body and provide your 'running muscles' more recovery. I suggested to him that when an elite international athlete moves to such a program and provides even equal results, then I'll consider such a program. Is there any elite international athelete that replaces running miles with cross-training miles that you know of? And can you please explain to me specifically the 'system'-atic benefits that these extra 3 days of running provide that simply cannot be gained through cross-training and how this converts to faster times for the mostly serious racer/runner who lacks more than 90 minutes/day to train.

[Michelle Lowry]

Yeah my sports chiropractor, Dr. Brady, has the same philosophy, that we do too much junk miles.  I proposed he give me an example of an elite low mileage runner and he couldn't.  I told him he was fired as my coach    Great doctor, but without examples of success, I'm not convinced that low mileage/high quality with cross training is a legitimate path to marathon excellence.

[Sasha Pachev]

I do not know of any. However, it is possible to run quite well with key workouts + cross-training in between in distances up to the half-marathon. I've been beat in those distances by guys who train like this. However, I've never been beat by anybody who admitted to this form of training in the marathon.

[Dave Holt]

Unfortunately I am not elite, but... this summer I would do extra mileage in the pool.  It wasn't to replace any mileage, however, just EXTRA training beyond the call of duty, and I think it strengthened me - especially in my hip flexors.

[Paul Petersen]

No.

Half the point of training is to adapt the body to pounding. The way to get better at running is to run more. Running more miles more often (doubles, etc.) will help with form and economy. Running long and hard will help with fueling and most importantly with adapting the body to handle shock and impact. Cross training will give you a general aerobic fitness, but it will do nothing for you at mile 22 of the marathon.

Let's put it this way. Say we have several runners of equal ability, and each has an allotted hours/day to train. Runner A spends 2 hours/day running. Runner B spends an hour running, 45 minutes cross training, and 15 minutes stretching. Runner A will beat Runner B in a race every time. However, Runner B will still mop the floor with Runner C, who just runs 60 minutes/day, but does nothing else. Runner B also has the least chance of injury. And Runner D, who runs 3 hours/day (~150 mpw) will be yet the fastest...but has the highest chance of injury. With high-level, high-volume running you are always straddling the threshold between greatness and injury. Cross training can help with the injury thing, but you'll never hit your ultimate potential...which may be okay because one will never hit their ultimate potential if they are injured every other month either.

[dave rockness]

I am extremely new at this, yet Lance Armstrong would seem to me to be the best example of why cross-training does not replace the value of "pounding".  Nobody on the face of the planet has probably done more cross-training preparation for a marathon and look what he ended up with- as stress fracture.  I still do cross-training to build core strength, and as I push 40 to help maintain bone density, yet nothing seems more valuable to my improvement than the "junk miles".   

Paul, congrats on the impressive run on Sunday!

[Jeff Linger]

The fact that cross-training provides the same benefit aerobically that the 3 extra days of running does seems fairly obvious. The fact that running more miles prepares the body to handle pounding also seems fairly obvious. And the fact that cross-training provides you with an environment that is potentially more injury free is also fairly obvious. But I'm hoping that someone can break down what these extra miles give you that cross-training simply cannot as it relates to physiology. What do those 3 days do for your body (my guess is that it must be muscular) that translates to me being able to run a 39 minute 10k as opposed to a 40 minute 10k?

[Cheryl Keith]

This is from a 51 year old woman who has been running marathons since the age of 38.  So obviously I'm not an elite nor anywhere even close, but I just wanted to relate my experiences with cross-training.  I ran my best marathon in 2007 (at the age of 50) at St. George when I ran approximately 30 miles a week but supplemented with lots of cross-training, especially cycling and also strength-training and yoga.  I had no injuries that year.  This year, I did very little cross-training, ran 50 to 60 miles a week for several months, ended up with a case of hamstring tendonitis and ran one of my worst marathons at St. George.  All I can say is maybe 20 and 30 year olds can get away with just running, but as you age, I think you'll wish you had done more cross-training and saved your legs from wear and tear.  Cross-training seems to have only helped my running. 

Also, Matt Fitzgerald, in his book Runner's World Guide to Cross-Training, says we don't really know how cross-training affects running because not enough runners are willing to try it long term.  He seems big on cross-training, though, and gives many examples of where it has helped elite runners.  Maybe you could look at that book for some answers to the question. 

[Paul Petersen]

Another good comment about cross training comes from coaching guru Jack Daniels. To paraphrase (off the top of my head), he says in The Running Formula to cross train if it will help you run more. In other words, cross train if it will develop supporting muscle systems and keep you injury-free. If these muscles are strong, you will be able to push running mileage further later on.

I hope I don't come off as anti-xtraining. I've been living in a gym lately, and have seen fruits from several cardio machines.

As far as the physiology, I'd recommend reading The Running Formula and The Lore of Running. You'll get plenty there. I'll readily admit I'm not qualified to get into the exact science. Mostly I know what I've seen and experienced.

[Paul (RivertonPaul)]

Similar to Paul's reference to Daniel's advice in "The Running Formula to cross train if it will help you run more" I would say cross train if it means you will do something when you would otherwise do nothing.  I agree that running is best for running, but we can't all run all the time.

[Sean Sundwall]

He is a tri-athlete...

Enough said. He's a triathlete. Ask him to pick one of those three sports and get really good at it by playing basketball. You don't become a runner by biking or swimming any more than i become a better swimmer by running. Cross train if you need to for peace of mind or to prevent boredom that might otherwise drive you out of running, but don't expect greater running performances from it.

[Jeff Linger]

True, but there are some studies that show you can improve your racing time by replacing running miles with xt miles when said xt is similar to running (cycling, swimming, eliptical, etc).

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244--11816-0,00.html

and in this article they suggest that for the average genetic talent runner xt in place of running produced no change in running times

http://www.powerrunning.com/Training/Cross%20Training%20for%20Runners.htm

I have found 3 studies that show benefits the other way

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3497218

http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/crossbenefits.shtml

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7649709

[Megan Marie Schedler]

This discussion board posts was interesting! Junk miles are like my rewards, every week i try and get in 1 long run, speed, and tempo day. The other days mean, i get to cruise and enjoy the scenery... Running at a comfortably pace is meditative for me.

[Sasha Pachev]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7649709

"No significant changes in run performance, resting heart rate and blood pressure occurred during the study."

No wonder, Pfitzinger observes that both groups were too tired to see any improvements.

From http://pfitzinger.com/labreports/crossbenefits.shtml

---------------------------------
The Bottom Line

So, what can we confidently say about the benefits of cross-training?

1. Cross-training will help you stay in shape when you can't run. If you cross-train at the same intensity and for the same number of minutes that you would normally run, you will show almost no loss in running fitness for at least 4 weeks, and after that any loss in running performance will be gradual.

2. If you increase your training volume by cross-training you can improve your running performance. The improvement, however, will not be as large as if you had increased your mileage. This point goes right to the heart of the mileage versus injury trade-off. Sure, you would improve more by increasing your running, but you would also increase your risk of injury. The challenge for the runner is to manage that trade-off by running as much as you can before the risk of injury shoots up.

3. There is no evidence that cross training will improve performance in elite runners. The concept of specificity of training becomes more critical the higher the level of performance.

-------------------

That's a good bottom line. If you cannot use all of your training time and energy running without being injured, then cross-train. Otherwise just run.

[Tom]

One question I have on the topic of mixing crosstraining with running......

Suppose for whatever reason I'm wanting to spend 1/2 of my exercise time for the week doing cross-training and the other 1/2 running. So if I'm a 6-day-a-week runner I decide that half of the time I would have spent running I'll do cross-training instead.

Is it better to alternate days where you do running-only 3 days (i.e M-W-F) and cross-training the other 3 (T-TH-S)?

OR is it better to do some running and some cross-training every day, i.e. instead of running 10 miles a day you run 5 miles every day and equivalent of the 5 miles of cross-training every day? Or does it really even matter?